Wow.

I’d be interested in a survey which correlates ACORN conspiracy nuts with belief in creationism or that they, personally, have been anally probed by aliens.

how many of them believe W was elected legally?

Little surprise that so many of them are sore losers and idiots, I bet if you asked the GOp fan base if they believe in the Rapture and End-times you’d see an even higher percentage of yays, which speaks volumes about them as an electorate.

I can only commend this video clip of Sarah Palin showing her credentials for presidential office:
http://en.zappinternet.com/video/FoTcFukYog/Candidata-Sarah-Palin-en-Banador

“In launching one of the most remarkable book tours in American political and publishing history, Palin is becoming a dizzying mix of celebrity and politician. Her folksy blend of right-wing rhetoric, uber-patriotism and winning smile is as heady a brew as ever for those millions – and they do number in the millions – of Americans for whom she is a hero.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/19/sarah-palin-book-tour-kicks-off

Who wants a special relationship?

I prefer Palin in ‘30 Rock’.

Have you seen some of those Republican commentors?

I recommend a trawl through the thread if you’re ever bored.

The issue is that ACORN used Federal funds to promote partisan politics. In other words my tax dollars are used to promote an agenda I disagree with, same thing with the National Endowment of Arts.

Don,

It is quite worrying, is it not?

I’d assume that near 100% of that group would also view global warming as a commie trick, and as DHG said be energised by ideas like the rapture and end times.

It is hard to see where America goes from here. Is this the utter failure of the democratic idea? There is a complete lack of any serious thought in any of these ideas, yet they are prevelant. It is as if the worst of the internets conspiracy theories had legs.

There are a lot of Americans that see their world through a filter, much like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

How many of them believe that aliens are real, and that they indulge in rectal probing?

The worry is that ’so above, so below’. We already have climate change denialists, how long before we have the rest of that invidious culture, where utter stupidity dominates? After all, we bought into Iraq on a lie, did we not?

“It is as if the worst of the internets conspiracy theories had legs.”

I think there’s something in that. Remember, back in the late 1980s and 1990s a lot of very silly stuff became very very popular. You know – your X-Files, Independence Day, Communion, Area 51 secret aircraft type stuff. All our favourite modern-day ghost stories from the outer fringes, script edited and beautifully filmed for mass viewing pleasure. I guess they had room to grow in air of post-cold-war relief. And it was damn good entertainment, of course.

But then most of us got a bit bored with it all, and moved on. The rest, however, had to find somewhere to channel their paranoid energy…

Neil,

Thanks for that. Can I just say:

And it was damn good entertainment, of course.

That is the issue, isn’t it? The differentiation between entertainment and reality has become a bit moot, has it not? I kinda loved the Matrix, but I didn’t think it was real. Some folk did.

The comments to this topic rather amuse me.

It’s too easy to smugly dismiss all of these people as conspiracy nuts, racists or plain stupid. In doing so posters here ignore how Obama’s reluctance to be more open about himself has led to many of the questions that are being asked. Now that the economy is doing far worse than projected and the 2008 election euphoria has died down these suspicions are becoming more mainstream and spawning other questions.

A few months ago any interest in the non-appearance of Obama’s original Birth Certificate was being dismissed as a campaign of ‘birther’ fruitcakes. Likewise the witholding of his academic records was regarded as intrusive attempt to delegitimize him.

Whatever his motives were for witholding this information, this lack of transparancy has in itself fostered the atmosphere of curiosity and heightened the sceptisim about anything he does. In my opinion this has probably come about as a result of his reluctance to reveal anything which might contradict the image of his of his messaniac like campaign – a few bad college grades or a ropey thesis could undermine the notion that he is a particularly gifted.

As far as ACORN goes they successfully motivated large numbers to participate in the election, including many people who usually don’t bother to vote. In some instances they used strongarm tactics which are worthy of a full investigation, as do all voter irregulatities. This feeds into the narrative of Obama being a product of Chicago ‘thug politics’ something that has been slung around with abandon.

I would suggest people stop defending him because he is who he is and represents what he does (liberal politics) and think whether they would be so keen to turn a blind eye to these questions if they were asked of his opponents.

Kojak:

Wow, you seriously have to question your motives when you are siding with the ‘birthers’ and trotting out fiction like: “Obama’s reluctance to be more open about himself has led to many of the questions that are being asked” which is utter nonsense; the birther movement is utterly groundless and based in racism and partizan-hack politics.

Add to this how much of a closed shop the Bush administration was and one has to wonder how detached you are from reality.

You also seem to be utterly unaware as to the sheer volume of evidence regarding Obama’s birth certificate and are as blind as the birthers themselves, which can only lead to the question, why do you hate Obama so much?

The first rule of engaging the pigfucker gambit is don’t engage the pigfucker gambit.

With all the immigration posts there is a lot of them about…

DHG re: Comment 13,

I don’t hate Obama. Far from it. He seems to be a nice enough fellow but one who is not quite what his campaigning promised.

I found the election of Obama to be curious because of the extraordinary level of sympathetic reporting surrounding his candidature and the lax investigative journalism which allowed so many questions to go unanswered.

George W Bush’s folksy conservative persona was easy to deride especially as he was so open about what he had and hadn’t achieved before his election. You know where he was born (his dad was high up in the CIA) his academic record was there to see and his sponsors were well known.
Whereas Obama’s successful attempts to limit access to the one item which could have derailed his election – his original birth certificate. Likewise access to his academic and medical records is not possible because they are witheld by his lawyers. This lack of transparicy speaks less of a dignified response to intrusive questions and more about avoiding to reveal things which should not be hidden from a public attempting to judge the character of the man.

Well, it’s too late now because he’ll be hoisted by his own petard. After the Democrats lose control of both Houses next November these questions will be asked again + again within the media as they hedge their bets for the future.

Hi Kojak, quick question:

What colour is the sky on your planet?

#16 – see #14

It’s too easy to smugly dismiss all of these people as conspiracy nuts, racists or plain stupid.

I think it is wise to be concerned about things like facts, fair and balanced consideration of the available evidence, and rational thinking. It is also wise to keep an open mind and be open to the emergence of new facts which might change one’s opinion. But at some point you simply have to say, “Well, you know, we’ve considered all the available facts, all the evidence, we’ve thought it through carefully and you know what? There really is nothing to this beyond loopy, crackpot conspiracy theories.” When it comes to the birther movement I think most sensible people passed that point long ago.

In doing so posters here ignore how Obama’s reluctance to be more open about himself has led to many of the questions that are being asked. Now that the economy is doing far worse than projected and the 2008 election euphoria has died down these suspicions are becoming more mainstream and spawning other questions.

That is just a really strange comment. I mean, I fail to see how the state of the economy has anything whatsoever to do with the location of Obama’s birth or pretty much any of the other things he is apparently not being “open” about.

As far as the original birth certificate is concerned, I think it is quite clear that Barack Obama could go to Hawaii or wherever it is stored, get it, then drive round to see every single birther in the United States and personally show them the bloody thing and it still wouldn’t be good enough.

Col. Richard Hindrance (Mrs.) re: Comment 17,

The same colour as yours.

Neil re: Comment 18 refering 16 back to 14,

“………don’t engage……….”

I’d like to ask you why you come onto a board like this if not only to engage. But that might require an answer that acknowledges your own conformity.

Frollix22 re: Comment 19:

” we’ve considered all the available facts, all the evidence,…….”

The facts and evidence are not available only because they are locked away in Obama’s lawyer’s safe. They could easily be released whenever he next speaks to his lawyer (doesn’t have to take time out of his busy schedule to make a separate call). It might be a pain in the backside but would quash the story and deflate some opposition – because as a politician seeking reeliction he’ll need everyone’s vote, whether they are sensible or not.

“I fail to see how the state of the economy has anything whatsoever to do with the location of Obama’s birth or pretty much any of the other things he is apparently not being “open” about.”

The US economy is still in deep deep trouble and will remain so for the forseeable future. Just as all governments tend to overemphasize their achievements Obama’s stimulus package hasn’t created a small fraction of real jobs that they claimed it has – in many instances the figures bumped up by the creation of jobs lasting only a few weeks. One could argue that’s only spin and everyone does it. But the real issue is credibility and whether an administration or politician can be trusted to tell the truth even if it’s uncomfortable to them (think of the impact of our MPs and their quite legal expenses or Bill Clinton’s definition of ’sexual relations’ – it caught up with them in the end).

The way that the economy hasn’t picked up only increases the liklyhood of a 3rd stimulus package (it has been widely discussed) – then why not a 4th or 5th until absolutely all credibility is forsaken?

“As far as the original birth certificate is concerned, I think it is quite clear that Barack Obama could go to Hawaii or wherever it is stored, get it, then drive round to see every single birther in the United States and personally show them the bloody thing and it still wouldn’t be good enough”

Lets substitute a few words and create a different scenario and see whether you still agree with the thrust of your statement regarding why evidence should not be produced:

………As far as the new Chalcott Inquiry into the Iraq War is concerned, I think it is quite clear that Chalcott could go to wherever the government’s information is stored, get it, then drive round to see every single member of the Stop The War Coallition and personally show them the bloody thing and it still wouldn’t be good enough………..

Transparancy transparancy transparancy.

Kojak, it’s the exact opposite of conformity. The moment you engage with the pigfucker gambit is the moment you’re doing what’s expected. That’s how it works.

See also, “when did you stop beating your wife?”.

It’s too easy to smugly dismiss all of these people as conspiracy nuts, racists or plain stupid.

Yes it is, isn’t it? It’s very, very easy indeed to dismiss all of these people as conspiracy nuts, racists or plain stupid. It’s also very easy to dismiss them as boggle-eyed, brainless, vacuous assclowns and snake-handling, banjo-twanging bumpkins who would struggle to outwit a houseplant. Not even a clever houseplant, mind – an especially stupid houseplant would do.

Why is it so easy to do dismiss these people, do you think?

Of course, the one thing that makes hilarious birth certificate bollocks far harder to dismiss is when people kid on that they don’t believe Obama is a secret Islamofascist, and pretend that they’re only interested in “transparency”. My God, a rhetorical trick like that is practically unassailable – Okay, I’m gabbling away like every other paranoid mentalist on the wingnut web, but it’s not the same, because I’m only raising concerns about transparency. Those people may indeed be sucking at the same teat of hooting dipshittery, but by God, feel the disinterested concern.

I’m kidding, of course. Those people are clowns too.

Good heavens, Kojak is a birther! This is hilarious.

The facts and evidence are not available only because they are locked away in Obama’s lawyer’s safe.

That’s precisely it though, isn’t it. There is a ton of evidence floating around but you birthers simply don’t care. By definition, the piece of evidence you want is that piece which you know you cannot have, whatever it might be. And if that ever did become available the evidence you really wanted all along would suddenly switch to being something else. And that is exactly the point I was making with my little story about Obama doing the rounds and pressing his birth certificate into your own hands.

Further to my comment #10 – these guys always obsess over the MacGuffin, but forget to actually follow the plot.

26% of Americans think Obama stole the election? Well, the fact is that between 26 and 28% of Americans are insane. That’s the proportion who are certain Jesus will come back in their lifetimes; who voted for *Alan fecking Keyes* against Obama in Illinois; who think there should be no healthcare bill at all; who think Sarah Palin would make a great President; etc, etc, etc. Bush’s final approval ratings were at exactly that level, as were Nixon’s. What a surprise, this piece of maniacal wingnuttery has exactly the same level of support as every other piece of maniacal wingnuttery.

… and as the Nixon thing shows, it’s been a constant for a long time. Probably applies outside the US too, but I don’t have the figures to hand.

Neil re: Comment 21
FlyingRodent re: Comment 22
Frollix22 re: Comment 23
Frollix re: Comment 24

Nice to see than none of you have any views upon the final 3 paragraph of my Comment 20. I doubted you would.

It’s so easy to avoid a question by demonizing or ridiculing the the person who asks it.

Just set your affection for Obama to one side and ask why someone might conceal their birth certificate, medical and academic records……….. well, that’s obviously a giveaway sign of them being a racist, an Islamofacist hunter, a bigot, a redneck or a nut-job.

I must remember the next time I review someone’s CV that I should definately give them the job without making full enquiries…….. I wouldn’t want to be accused of being a sexist, racist, elitist, cynic or control freak would I? (I somehow doubt whether any of you have actually been in the position of employing someone and discharging your duties under the law).

A guy is driving along the motorway and is pulled over for speeding. A policeman walks up to his window + asks “May I see your driving licence, Sir?”. The driver says “Sorry officer, my licence is in a vault, however I have a PDF file copy of one that I can email to your car from my blackberry. It’s been authenticated by a Magistrate. Is that good enough?”.

Yes Kojak, and it’s nice to see you ignored my point from #25 and carried right on…

Correction to my Comment 28.

The 4th paragraph should have said:

“Just set your affection for Obama to one side and ask why someone might conceal their birth certificate, medical and academic records……….. well, that’s obviously a giveaway sign of the person asking being a racist, an Islamofacist hunter, a bigot, a redneck or a nut-job.”

Marcus re: Comment 29,

Regarding your comment 25 I didn’t realize it was a point directed for me to address. So, here’s my answer.

Wikipedia definition of MacGuffin:

“The MacGuffin is common in films, especially thrillers. Commonly, though not always, the MacGuffin is the central focus of the film in the first act, and later declines in importance as the struggles and motivations of characters play out. Sometimes the MacGuffin is all but forgotten by the end of the film”

As I stated in the final paragraph of comment 16 this question will not go away – so your choice of analogy is wrong.

3/10

Mmmmn.

Apologies to Marcus.
Comment 31 should have been addressed to Neil.

This is all very well Kojak, but what’s in Marsellus Wallace’s briefcase? Eh? Eh? Why won’t anyone tell us? Eh?

Neil re: Comment 33,

I refer you to the third paragraph of comment 28

Kojak re: Comment 34,

I refer you to comment 33

Nice to see than none of you have any views upon the final 3 paragraph of my Comment 20. I doubted you would.

Because you’re asking us to agree that transparency in government is a Good Thing. Well, no shit – transparency in government is a Good Thing.

One Thing that is not Good, however, is legions of credulous dim bulbs bashing their empty skulls with their six-fingered fists and demanding that the President of the USA prove that he doesn’t literally possess cloven hooves, devil horns and sickly sulphurous breath.

Because let’s be clear – the Teabaggers’ contention is that Barack Obama has usurped the Presidency through a devious, multi-faceted conspiracy to conceal his secret Muslim identity. Look, what’s that up in the sky? Why OMFG, it’s JIHADOBAMA, come to wipe his heathen hoop upon Ol’ Glory! To the hills, Wolverines, before the IslamoSoviet helicopters attack!

It’s so easy to avoid a question by demonizing or ridiculing the the person who asks it.

Yes, it is, because you make it easy. The trouble is, nobody is demonising the Teabaggers – the entire United States is mocking the Teabaggers as are 9/11 Truthers, Moon shot sceptics, black helicopter nutters.

Turn on your TV – you’ll notice that your status in American politics is now roughly on par with the North American Man-Boy Love Association. That’s not because of the awful librul media – that’s because your lunacy terrifies sane people and no politician with even a hamster’s brain will touch you with a barge pole.

Don’t believe me? Walk out of your front door and strike up a conversation with the first person you see, then drop the Muslim Obama bomb, just to see what happens. You could even dress it up in the feeble “Oh, I am merely concerned” fripperies that you seem to think makes your schtick vaguely more credible.

I, for one, am absolutely certain that the whole birth certificate bullshit explosion was planted in the minds of wingnut fruitcakes by some Obama campaign hack, because it is going to bury the Republican Party under an avalanche of electorally-poisonous Teabagger bullshit.

If the man has any sense, he’ll keep coughing Allahu Akhbar and Marg bar Amrika into microphones, leaving Michelle Malkin and her drones poring over two-second clips like brain damaged heavy metal fans, playing their Judas Priest records backwards and saying See? See? Satan Is Lord, Satan Is Lord, clear as a bell!

I mean, it’s not like the Prez has been very good in his first year, is it? You could harsh on him for Tim Geithner, or for the long-running fuckfest that is Afghanistan, or for his half-assed, Big Money-pleasing healthcare bill. That would be sane and possibly even persuasive.

But no, it’s always with the Birtherism. Well, good luck to you sir – I, for one, hope you and your comrades ride that particular hobby horse right over the horizon of political irrelevance and keep going for about the next three decades.

Just set your affection for Obama to one side

Affection for Obama? Amusing. I loathe Obama. Perhaps it does not compute for you that someone actually might intensely dislike Obama yet still think you birthers are fruitcakes?

Rodent, as a brain damaged heavy metal fan myself I object to your comment. If you play Judas Priest records backwards I think you’ll clearly find the lyrics go along the lines of “ha..you morons think this shit is actually heavy and rebellious – go listen to gojira instead”

I apologise if this has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, but Kojak, you really are a barking mad twat, aren’t you?

You’re seriously suggesting that there’s some reason (”transparency” you understand, not inbred, banjo – playing, creationist, fuckwittery) why the current President of the United States of America should produce his birth certificate just so you can check there are no irregularities. Or his College records, just in case he actually got a 2:2 and he’s been covering it up.

Apart from the few, no doubt cursory and slapdash, checks on minor issues such as nationality which I’d imagine might possibly be carried out by the US authorities on people who wish to stand for election to run their country, don’t you think it’s possible that the Republican Party may have done a spot of investigation itself around the time of the last election, just in case there was any muck to be raked on Mr Obama (or should that be Obamadinnejad, the sneaky, possibly foreign, bastard?). Well, if they found anything, they didn’t make it public, did they? Of course that could be because the Republican Party operates on a shoestring and just didn’t have the cash to fund a thorough investigation. Or maybe they found the evidence they were looking for but their well known sense of ethics prevented them from publishing it (I probably should point out for Kojak’s benefit that there was a slight trace of sarcasm running through my last two sentences).

“As far as ACORN goes they successfully motivated large numbers to participate in the election, including many people who usually don’t bother to vote.” Well, I wish you’d mentioned this earlier. The despicable bastards. Motivating large numbers of people to participate in the election? How dare they? Encouraging people, who usually didn’t bother, to vote? That’s fucking shocking, that is. It’s just as bad as those interfering bastards in the 60s who went round encouraging the coloured folks down south to vote. Where are the Klan when you need them, eh, Kojak?

“It’s so easy to avoid a question by demonizing or ridiculing the the person who asks it.” Yes. Yes, it is. Especially when the question is fucking stupid and the person who is asking it is an idiot. But let’s be strictly accurate here. I don’t think anyone’s avoiding the question, they’re laughing at it. And I don’t think anyone’s actually demonizing you. Ridiculing, definitely, demonizing well, not really. Demons are sinister. You’re not. You’re a clown.

Kojak, me old mate, you’re good entertainment, please carry on refusing to take your medication.

Mr F re: Comment 39,

What line would Obama have to cross by producing his birth certificate? You’re talking as if he hadn’t already produce the PDF version for inspection.

Likewise I would have imagined both parties would have vetted these details but they clearly didn’t receive all this informaton – otherwise they could refute this with the evidence.

Earlier I put forward my hunch that Obama has something like a duff grade or thesis lurking in his academic wardrobe – something his team supporting the Obama Canditadure thought might be potentially awkward + it was far easier to lock away than defend. So, they controlled access to everything rather than just his academic record as this would draw attention to it. Just ask yourselves whether the Democratic party read every bit of college work from all 8 (I think) candidates as they put themselves forward?

Little did I know that this kind of waryness of politcal campaigning and idolatry would leave me open to accusations of having danced with the devil or equate me with some racist opponents of Obama.

Comparatavly speaking here in the UK it’s of little measure as many members of our cabinet spent their student days postulating how to bring about a workers paradise only to end up administering a consumer pergatory. Anyone calling Alasdair Darling or Jkhn Reid ‘ex-Trots’ are not accused of being fascist or wacko.

So come on guys – get a grip. Transparancy is not a cloak it’s a standard.

Judge Land and now judge Carter, smack down the crazies (case dismissed), poor little Birthers.

Not even “Fake News” Bill O’Reilly believes the crazies, how funny.

http://belowthebeltway.com/2009/10/29/bill-oreilly-slams-orly-taitz/
http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/BIRTHER%20CASE%20LIST.pdf

To all the birthers in La, La Land, it is on you to prove to all of us that your assertion is true (TOUGH WHEN YOU KEEP LOSING CASES), if there are people who were there and support your position then show us the video (everyone has a price), either put up or frankly shut-up. I heard Orly Taitz, is selling a tape (I think it’s called “Money, Lies and Video tape”). She is from Orange County, CA, now I know what the mean when they say “behind the Orange Curtain”, when they talk about Orange County, the captial of Conspiracy Theories. You know Obama has a passport, he travel abroad before he was a Senator, but I guess they were in on it.

In my opinion the Republican Party has been taken over the most extreme religious right (people who love to push their beliefs on others while trying to take away the rights of those they just hate) and that’s who they need to extract from their party if they real want to win. Good Luck, because as they said in WACO, “We Ain’t Coming Out”.

I heard that she now wants to investigate the “Republican 2009 Summer of Love” list: Assemblyman, Michael D. Duvall (CA), Senator John Ensign (NV), Senator Paul Stanley (TN), Governor Mark Stanford (SC), Board of Ed Chair, and Kristin Maguire AKA Bridget Keeney (SC). She wants to re-establish a family values party.

I can only hope that Taitz will resist the state collectors that will be coming to collect the $20K.

Anyone calling Alasdair Darling or Jkhn Reid ‘ex-Trots’ are not accused of being fascist or wacko.

Indoodle. Mind you, anyone heavily implying that they’re secretly Jihadist cyborgs from the future might raise the odd chuckle, regardless of whether they were saying so openly, dressing it up in a lot of obfuscatory waffle about “transparency” or just pretending to believe that the grades they got for Home Economics are a matter of vast national concern.

It amuses me to think about how many people would have to be involved in the conspiracy to keep Obama’s real birthplace a secret from kojak and his birther friends. I mean, the director of the Hawaii State Department of Health has confirmed that he has inspected the original records and that they confirm Obama is a natural born American citizen and that his birth certificate is treated the same as every other such document for every other citizen.

But of course, this just means he is in on the conspiracy, for whatever crazy reason. As was the newspaper which published details of Obama’s birth in Hawaii at the time, or perhaps Obama’s mother was simply instituting the first stage of her 50 year master plan to ensure that her son was able to become president. It is so hard to keep track of exactly what it is these nutcase birthers think. Perhaps kojak can enlighten us.

Of course, lurking behind all this and, let’s face it, not particularly well hidden, is the fact that nobody can recall any such “controversy” or demands for “transparency” about the birthplace of Reagan, either Bush, Clinton, Truman, Wilson, Johnson, Kennedy, Nixon or Ford. Yep, there ain’t no controversy about where Whitey was born.

@42 – Dutch Reagan. Think about it – Dutch Reagan. Very suspicious.

These Republicans must think we’re stupid! We should be told the truth! Transparency! Transparency! TRANSPARENCY!

FlyingRodent re: Comment 41,

So, leaving Home Economics aside, you don’t think the papers would be making a fuss if it transpired that Alasdair Darling had got an E in his GCSE Maths?

Frollix22 re: Comment 42,

Be a good boy and do a bit of research before you imply I’m a racist.

Have a look at the following article from the New York Times dated 28 Feb 2008 discussing John McCain’s eligigility as a ‘natural born citizen’.

Guess what? Obama and the issue of race aren’t even mentioned.

Fancy withdrawing your last statement?

Frollix22 re: Comment 42,

Be a good boy and do a bit of research before you imply I’m a racist.

Have a look at the following article from the New York Times dated 28 Feb 2008 discussing John McCain’s eligigility as a ‘natural born citizen’.

Guess what? Obama and the issue of race aren’t even mentioned.

Fancy withdrawing your last statement?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

Nice try, my little birther buddy.

However, even you should be able to comprehend that the two cases are totally different. After all, there is no question there of where McCain was born. Everyone knows where he was born: and not because we’ve all rolled down to the relevant office and checked the original copy of his birth certificate, eh? And there is certainly no intimation that McCain is participating in any conspiracy or an ongoing lie. That story is an interesting little piece about a technicality relating to the precise wording of the US Constitution. I sure don’t see any birther movement droning on and on and on and on and on and on about McCain. I very much doubt that only 25% of Democrats believe McCain was legally entitled to become President.

Nope, my comment stands up just fine so there is no need to withdraw anything.

I don’t know anything about your personal opinions on matters of race apart from what one may glean from your comments on this site and unless I saw something pretty blatant I would neither conclude nor “imply” that you were racist, so you can calm down about that. That said, this is a fact: underlying the birther movement, the reason the entire birther movement has grown and gained traction is the fact that Obama just ain’t a white man. And if you can’t see that… well I won’t call you a racist but I might just call you stoopid. How’s that?

While I’ve got your attention, Koj, perhaps you can tell us the birther take is on that Hawaii newspaper and its birth announcement? I mean, I am actually interested to know exactly how people who doubt the location of Obama’s birth account for that.

@frolix #48 – the thing is, the birthers don’t really care about facts like where the man was born and so on. What sticks in their craw is that Obama didn’t immediately ask “how high?” when they commanded him to “jump”.

The whole thing is like some psychological trauma. But then, this does tend to happen to political parties that get thumped in elections.

Stage 1: We couldn’t have lost! The other guys must have cheated!
Stage 2: I can’t believe we lost! The electorate can’t have understood our message properly, we need to be purer.
Stage 3: Maybe there’s something wrong with the way we’re getting our message out.
Stage 4: Maybe there’s something wrong with our message.

The Tories finally got to stage 4 in 2005. The Republicans are still at stage 1 or 2. I wonder how long it will take Labour…

Neil, oh yes I know that. But Koj is right here and I assume that he would feel that since he is debating the issue he has at least some obligation to give an honest answer to the question when it is posed.

…you don’t think the papers would be making a fuss if it transpired that Alasdair Darling had got an E in his GCSE Maths?

Oh, I think the papers might be interested in that – after all, “Chancellor not qualified for job” is quite a story.

OTOH, “Several thousand comedy wingnuts read ridiculous bullshit on the internet, spend months jumping up and down angrily demanding to see Chancellor’s GCSE results” is not a story, especially since furious, wackaday hilarity is what comedy wingnuts do all the time.

Dog bites man, see? I suppose they might be able to fit you into the column with the dog that can say “sausages” and the man who claims aliens interfered with his anus, if you’re interested.

Like I say though, if I were Obama, I’d just keep you lot ticking over and I’d never, ever release that certificate. Teabaggers are a godsend for the Democrats and electoral death for the Republicans, because they are such abject dumbasses that nobody would want to associate themselves with them.

Frollix22,

We were told by supposedly authorative sources that the US was too racially divided to ever elect a black president – but, hey presto! they did it. Good for them, the racial stereotype of an unelectable black candidate is in the bin. But despite this no matter how I demonstrate this is not an issue of Obama’s race you manage to bring it back to that. Get over it – the American people did.

I think the witholding of information by Obama is a bit silly because as President he is Head of State the President of all Americans, whether they voted for him or not, and fulfills a unifying role. So quash any rumours asap and don’t let them spread by appearing as if there might be something to hide.

As far as the election of Obama is concerned my only problem was that the Democratic Party chose a man whose most successful slogan was a Bob The Builder catchprase, supported by a man whose plagarism of Neil Kinnock had forced him to withdraw 17 years earlier. I didn’t quite get how ‘Yes we can’ was supposed to be his ’soaring rhetoric’ which I heard so much about in the news.

We were told by supposedly authorative sources that the US was too racially divided to ever elect a black president – but, hey presto! they did it. Good for them, the racial stereotype of an unelectable black candidate is in the bin. But despite this no matter how I demonstrate this is not an issue of Obama’s race you manage to bring it back to that. Get over it – the American people did.

Not really sure why you are bringing that up in response to me, old bean. It does not bear on anything I have said in this thread. I said that underlying the birther movement was racism. Nothing about the election from me, buddy.

So what about it? Do you dispute my assertion that racism underlies much of the birther movement or not?

And you haven’t answered my question about the newspaper, either. I am interested to know the birther take on it.

You have to try a little harder, frolix, if you want to understand teabagger logic. For them, the fact that the US has a black president proves there is now no racism at all in the US except against white people. Therefore, they CAN’T be racists, no matter how openly they display outright hatred for all non-whites.

Well I must admit I am a little puzzled as to how the election result bears on the nature of the birther movement since anyone can see the birthers aren’t exactly burdened with too many Obama voters.

Marcus re: Comment 56,

What’s your take on this then?

http://www.lloydmarcus.com/?p=755
http://www.lloydmarcus.com/?p=787
http://www.lloydmarcus.com/?p=799

With this one thown in for good measure

http://www.lloydmarcus.com/?p=811

Anyone here feeling a compelling need by now for urgent reassurance on the mindset of our closest allies, is strongly recommended to watch first this video on YouTube about the recent Book Signing ceremony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKKgua7wQk&feature=fvst

More from Lloyd Marcus:

http://www.lloydmarcus.com/?page_id=546

http://www.lloydmarcus.com/?page_id=568

About those two questions…

Frollix22 re: Comment 62 re the questions in comments 49 + 55,

I suppose I have to restate my position again regarding Obama’s Birth Certificate and other records which are under lock and key:
I find it surprising that this question was not formally addressed by either party during the election and am surprised that any doubts whatsoever have been allowed to linger by the witholding of information which easily be released for authorative inspection. This shouldn’t be about rival political parties or opponents scoring points but rather about adherence with the wording of the constitution.
So, I don’t think that qualifies me as a ‘birther’. I would suggest that all the information be reviewed by a mutually agreed authority (agreed by Democrats + G.O.P.) including the newspaper article to which you refer.

As far as your assertion that racism underlies much of the birther movement – I refer you to the earlier links to Lloyd Marcus who participated in the tea parties.

I’m not sure why Kojak’s waving Lloyd Marcus about as an example of the “Tea Bag” movement’s integrity. I thought that I remembered the name, and, sure enough, he’s lodged inside the organised hard-right, which, after years of harassing anti-war protestors, is presenting itself as a pillar of dissent! A fair bit of power and money behind it, as well (and, yes, Kojak – it both contains and promotes bigotry; doesn’t mean “birthers” are necessarily racist – they’re not – but you’d better find a new argument).

I shall assume that Kojak wishes to deny that racism is a significant element which has driven the growth of the birther movement without actually coming out and saying it directly.

I find it surprising that this question was not formally addressed by either party during the election and am surprised that any doubts whatsoever have been allowed to linger by the witholding of information which easily be released for authorative inspection.

Why do you think that there were no “doubts” which had to be “formally addressed” with regard to the candidates in previous elections? Did Reagan and Dukakis formally exchange birth certificates, do you think? Nixon and Kennedy?

We are really getting to the heart of it now. Why is it an “issue” with Obama?

BenSix re: Comment 64,

Thank you for your comments.

Far be it from me to pull aside the curtain and reveal the Wizard to an unsuspecting Dorothy – I have to reveal that all campaigns (be they mainstream or ‘grass roots’) have a well organized PR working on their behalf. So nothingsurprising about the Tea Parties doing the same.

As to your choice of the term ‘far right’ to describe the Tea Party movement – don’t you think that in itself is a bit extreme …….. it’s more like a conservative movement, and people in the US more readily describe themselves as conservative than we think.

I appreciate your distinction between racism and bigotry – it helps move this along and enables me to discuss this without feeling acused of racism for raising the questions I do.

Lloyd Marcus is an interesting character and I am not prepared to dismiss him as a black stooge, there to add credibility to the Tea Party Movement. He’s just another conservative one who resents how he sees the Democratic Party’s reliance upon but subordination of American black voters. That he does so in a predominantly white movement is another matter altogether.

Mark Williams looks like an unpleasant character, not one I would like to associate with, but don’t put Rush Limbaugh into the same bracket. Limbaugh (whether you love him or hate him) is direct in his views and clearly avoids

BenSix re: Comment 64,

Thank you for your comments.

Far be it from me to pull aside the curtain and reveal the Wizard to an unsuspecting Dorothy – I have to reveal that all campaigns (be they mainstream or ‘grass roots’) have a well organized PR working on their behalf. So nothingsurprising about the Tea Parties doing the same.

As to your choice of the term ‘far right’ to describe the Tea Party movement – don’t you think that in itself is a bit extreme …….. it’s more like a conservative movement, and people in the US more readily describe themselves as conservative than we think.

I appreciate your distinction between racism and bigotry – it helps move this along and enables me to discuss this without feeling acused of racism for raising the questions I do.

Lloyd Marcus is an interesting character and I am not prepared to dismiss him as a black stooge, there to add credibility to the Tea Party Movement. He’s just another conservative one who resents how he sees the Democratic Party’s reliance upon but subordination of American black voters. That he does so in a predominantly white movement is another matter altogether.

Mark Williams looks like an unpleasant character, not one I would like to associate with, but don’t put Rush Limbaugh into the same bracket. Limbaugh (whether you love him or hate him) is direct in his views and clearly avoids

Continued from 67:

…….. Rush Limbaugh ……. clearly avoids bigotry and racism – though he fights hard to discredit people he opposes. But you could say the same about radio presenters from theopposite political viewpoint; Randi Rhodes from Air America comes to mind.

HTF is this thread still going?

Hi, Kojak

Far be it from me to pull aside the curtain and reveal the Wizard to an unsuspecting Dorothy – I have to reveal that all campaigns (be they mainstream or ‘grass roots’) have a well organized PR working on their behalf.

There’s a difference between “working on their behalf” and “engineering their creation“. There’s also a difference between “well organized PR” and “PR lobby with a long history amongst the US hard-right“. In both cases, as I’ve said, it’s the latter.

As to your choice of the term ‘far right’ to describe the Tea Party movement – don’t you think that in itself is a bit extreme …….. it’s more like a conservative movement, and people in the US more readily describe themselves as conservative than we think.

Obviously, lots of people within the protests aren’t extremists, but those engineering some of the campaigns – such as those that I bring up in my post – are. They have, to restate, a lengthy history of strident pro-war activism, disrupting anti-Bush protests and promoting bigoted propaganda.

Not sure what’s “conservative” about them, either.

Lloyd Marcus is an interesting character and I am not prepared to dismiss him as a black stooge, there to add credibility to the Tea Party Movement. He’s just another conservative one who resents how he sees the Democratic Party’s reliance upon but subordination of American black voters. That he does so in a predominantly white movement is another matter altogether.

I don’t think that he’s a “black stooge“; I do, however, think he’s foolish. I mean, good God man – he has a song called “Our Girls“, a “tribute to Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingram and Michelle Malkin“. This makes the Right Brothers look like the Rolling Stones!

Not sure what’s conservative about him, either.

Mark Williams looks like an unpleasant character, not one I would like to associate with, but don’t put Rush Limbaugh into the same bracket. Limbaugh (whether you love him or hate him) is direct in his views and clearly avoids bigotry and racism…

I respectfully disagree.

Niel:

Kojak is a demented birther perchance?