The Truth about Immigration


4:00 pm - November 19th 2009

by Unity    


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When New Labour’s election strategists sat down to look over the results of the 2005 general election, in which the party lost more seats than they expected, they quickly came to two very clear conclusions.

One was that middle-class opposition to the war in Iraq had spawned a protest vote from which the Liberal Democrats had been the main beneficiaries and had cost them a number of marginal seat. The other was that working class antipathy towards immigration was costing the party votes in its traditional heartlands.

Six weeks later, the government joined the race to the bottom on immigration in earnest with the publication of a new Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Bill, which become law in 2006, restricting the right of appeal against refusal of entry that had previously been afforded to students, dependants and visitors to only human rights and discrimination grounds and imposing fines on employers who employ migrant workers who lack the necessary paperwork, i.e. entry clearance, leave to remain and/or a work permit.

The Conservatives may have spawned the mantra that ‘it’s not racist to talk about immigration’ but it was New Labour who gave it legitimacy.

Of course, its true that talking about immigration isn’t automatically racist but it does come with a heavy proviso. It’s not racist to talk about, and debate, immigration as long as you’re putting forward an honest and truthful argument, one that accurately reflects the real situation, that draws on the evidence – of which there’s plenty to work with – and provides a fair and honest picture of the benefits and drawbacks of immigration into, and from, the UK.

What is racist, however, is lying about immigration; spreading myths, fallacies and misinformation as part of a pre-packaged agenda which alters reality to suit your own prejudices and magnify those same prejudices in others. You can dress it up in soft language all you like.

Eschew simple words like ‘Black’ and ‘White’ in favour of gentler sounding euphemisms in which the talk is of ‘indigenous populations’ and ‘migrant stock’ but the game remains the same as it ever was. If you’re selling people the idea that migrants are the enemy at the gates and they’re coming here specifically to take ‘British’ jobs, do away with the local culture and outbreed the local population in the process then you’re peddling arguments that are deeply rooted in unthinking ethnic prejudice and thinly veiled xenophobia, no matters your protestations to the contrary.

Over the next couple of weeks, Liberal Conspiracy will be publishing a series of linked articles uncovering the truth about immigration over the last 10-15 years and presenting the evidence as it really is, not as it appears when filtered through the distorting less of much of the mainstream press.

We’ll also be paying close attention to the role played by the the Daily Mail’s second favourite pressure group (after the Taxpayer’s Alliance) Migrationwatch UK and the extent to which its activities have framed the public debate on immigration around a series of sub-Malthusian nightmare scenarios which are founded, in the main, on highly selective use of immigration and migration data to support a pre-digested media agenda that is at odds with reality.

Migrationwatch UK, I might add, are categorically not a racist organisation and they have lawyers who’ll happily send you a nastygram to prove it if you suggest otherwise, so watch what you’re saying in comments.

In this series…

– We’ll tell you about the migrants that Migrationwatch UK rarely, if ever, mention even though they account for between 55% and 60% of the total net migration into the UK since 1991 and how and why they not only bring billions of pounds into a crucial sector of the British economy every year but also help to foster economic and social development across the whole globe.

– We’ll look at truth about asylum applicants, where they’re from and how many of them are connected to some of the major global events of the past decade and more, and we’ll be showing you who has, and hasn’t, been living up to the international treaty obligations and taking their fair share of the load.

– We’ll look at the issue of economic migration and the impact of EU expansion and show you how and why the recent surfeit of Polish plumbers may soon be a thing of the past for reasons that few have been willing to acknowledge openly, even though those reasons have been well known from day one of the expansion.

– We’ll also explain why immigration policies based on fixed quotas are based on a common fallacy and why they have the potential to do much more harm than good.

– We’ll look at internal as well as international migration, at where the much talked about pressures on local services and local infrastructure are really coming from, at how the British tax system works against the best efforts of local authorities to deal with short-term changes in local population and at why the belief that government’s can’t ‘buck the market’ is pushing up population densities in some area, while stripping others of their economic lifeblood and prospects for the future.

– And we’ll look at the part that one of Britain’s major exports – Ex-pats – have to play in the shifting demographic patterns of modern Britain.

Whether any of this will cause you to revise your opinions on immigration, in any direction, is anyone’s guess but at least you should be better informed by the end of this series and, hopefully, more inclined to question carefully the underlying assumptions that underpin the political debate on immigration, as we moved towards the next general election, and how these are reflected in and shaped by media coverage of immigration issues.

Poster: It is racist to lie about immgration

Oh, and there’ll be a fresh poster for each part of the series for use by bloggers responding to any of the articles, in the hope that between comments here and chaining together responses from other blogs using links and trackbacks, we might just prove that is genuinely possible to have a serious debate on immigration and immigration policy without the usual overpowering stench of burning straw-men and thinly concealed prejudice.

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About the author
'Unity' is a regular contributor to Liberal Conspiracy. He also blogs at Ministry of Truth.
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Story Filed Under: Blog ,Economy ,Education ,Europe ,Immigration ,Race relations

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Reader comments


I can’t wait for this to start. Out of interest, are you intending to write something about no recourse to public funds (NRPF)?

If not, given that part my day job involves NRPF cases, and exploring some of the complexities of such cases, I would be happy to write something about it exploring the realities of what NRPF is doing to people on the ground so to speak.

Great stuff, a good incentive for me to get my blog back up and running so I can add to the chorus.

NRPF is likely to feature, especially if I can put some numbers to the scale of the issue.

As for writing something, Planeshift, we do run guest blogs so I don’t see why you shouldn’t throw something into the pot. I’ll talk to Sunny.

Most of what I’m going to be writing will be data-driven but there’s plenty of scope for others to weave anecdotal commentaries and op-eds around that main framework.

And on analysing the 2005 delection results, new Labour decided to do nothing about the votes that it had lost because of the invasion of Iraq. Discuss.

Nice. Particularly looking forward to the stuff about Migration Watch, and whilst it’s clear from this post that you won’t be describing them as a racist organisation, I hope you’ll be exploring links between them and other organisations which might find it very difficult to argue in court that they aren’t racist.

Can’t wait!

“they are coming here … to do away with the local culture and outbreed the local population”

this is simply a matter of fact so i await with interest to learn how you intend to construct a convincing case that it isn’t.

The ‘fact’ is that mass immigration has been rejected by many other advanced democracies around the world for example Japan and South Korea. They recognise that mass immigration is injurious to social cohesion. This is a perfectly valid position to take.

Mass immigration is not inevitable in modern society as the ‘left’ have successfully brainwashed most the British population into thinking.

I imagine your series will continue to support this delusion. New Labour will ultimately be forgiven for their wars but they will never be forgiven down the centuries for setting Britain on a path to communalism and fracture.

Look forward to reading these.

I added a comment to the latest Mail scare story today about population growth which seemed to have a completely new idea about population in 20 years time despite the fact that the ONS hadn’t changed the headline numbers since they published them last month.

I must remember to ask Migrationwatch why, if they are a UK-wide organisation, do they (a) include the Republic of Ireland on their UK logo and (b) persist in quoting ‘England is the most densely populated country in Europe apart from Malta’. Erm…well in that case won’t Scotland and Wales be two of the least densely populated?

And as if you couldn’t predict it, BBC Question Time proves why this sort of thing is needed. While baseless and broad statements like “Immigration means I can’t get a job”, briefly broken down in to “I’ve been looking for 5 months, can’t get a job, and there’s all these immigrants…”, are pervading without contest (and chance would be a fine thing for a panel on BBCQT to ever contest this kind of statement), all we’re doing is getting collectively more stupid.

10. NeutralVoice

People need to vote in the General Election for a party that will stop all immigration immediately, so that we have a chance to sort out the mess the country has got itself into. Only after that has been done can we start thinking again about allowing immigration under strict controls.

“NeutralVoice” – I cannot wait for all the immigruntz to come here and destroy your culture, because if you are English, then by god I hope they destroy you and everything you stand for.

I can’t wait!

If all the threats we keep hearing from workers in the finance sector have any substance, we’d be should ban *emigration* first.

“Over the next couple of weeks, Liberal Conspiracy will be publishing a series of linked articles uncovering the truth about immigration over the last 10-15 years and presenting the evidence as it really is, not as it appears when filtered through the distorting less of much of the mainstream press.”

I’ll assume that you meant “distorting lens”. In any case, by talking simply about numbers you will not dampen some of my strongest objections to immigration, which focus largely on the falsehoods of ‘multiculturalism’, social cohesion (or a lack thereof) and several other related issues.

Statistics only tell half the story.

Shorter LFAT: “You can prove anything with facts.”

….and the hysteria begins.

In any case, by talking simply about numbers you will not dampen some of my strongest objections to immigration, which focus largely on the falsehoods of ‘multiculturalism’, social cohesion (or a lack thereof) and several other related issues.

Maybe, maybe not – but after you’ll at least be sure that your concerns are founded on reality and not on populist myth-making, an issue I’ll address in looking at the media’s role in the wider immigration debate.

Not having a dig at you personally there, btw, that’s more of a generic statement but you may find that clarity over the numbers gives you a more nuanced sense of your own concerns and how they might best be addressed without the need to pull up the shutters and put out the ‘Britain’s Full’ signs.

17. Donut Hinge Party

“they are coming here … to do away with the local culture and outbreed the local population”

this is simply a matter of fact so i await with interest to learn how you intend to construct a convincing case that it isn’t.

“Quick, Aalyiah – raise your burkha for intercourse – we must drown the Western Christians in a flood of our babies! Then I shall burn down the Scout Hut, the Darby and Joan club and childhood memories of Rainbow! Ah ha haaa!!”

Yep, it’s going to be a long haul this one.

*pulls up deckchair and bombay mix.*

I find it amazing that the tories suddenly think people’s *feelings* about this issue are more important to consider than the raw numbers.

Funny how it didn’t work that way back in the 1980s, when the destruction of our indigenous culture was, you know, just one of those things we had to do to…

LFAT has a point. The Oldham Independent Review is instructive.

Yep, it’s going to be a long haul this one.

D’ya think?

How’s the “they all want to come here” myth for starters?
How many people know that the UK is actually 10th in the EU league of immigrants as percentage of national population? Details and figures here.

I can’t think of an argument for cutting the world up into little patches and then having all sorts of rules over who can live where which is anything but racist. Let governments stop telling people where to live.

23. Donut Hinge Party

“Let governments stop telling people where to live.”

You’re getting dangerously proudhonian, here. At what point does a citizen, or collection of citizens, become a government?

Once you state that no government has property rights over land, at what point do you ascribe those self-same rights to the individual – do you have the right to own your own land? What about a village – do they have the rights to own their land? Et cetera.

Governments are nothing more than extended social contracts laid down by our forefathers and continually mutating. It’s nothing more than an extended family. This year, for example, we agreed in our family that we’re not going have sprouts this Christman, after a tradition – nay, a law – that stipulated their presence at every previous Yuletide meal. Just because people grumble doesn’t detract from the line of continuity.

True story for the allegory – my extended family has just been subject to immigration, as both my sisters have married Moroccan men, who have just got their visas. They can try to outbreed me if they want, but I’ve got a two child head start on them.

We’ve also put up friends of the family when they’ve had to stay over in reduced circumstances, which I suppose is the equivalent of the welfare state/refugees.

Unfortunately, we also have the death penalty for leaving the toilet seat up, so it’s not a utopian state, by any means.

*sigh*

18 Neil – I did not say anything was more important than numbers. My point was that talking about 100 immigrants from this country or 50,000 immigrants from another country lacks any context in terms of the specific impact that they make at a local level in a local community or town or city. Please don’t distort my perfectly valid point into some Daily Fail hysteria that I always maintain a safe distance from.

16 Unity – clarity is always appreciated on such politically charged issues. I trust that you will present all the necessary data, regardless of how much it might harm a particular perspective – be it pro or anti immigration.

Letters from a Tory,

I’d be interested in your views on a third sort of immigration that may become, well, a moral necessity. And just stick with the arguement rather than knocking the premise, please?

If climate change is true, then huge swathes of this world will become uninhabitable without a huge houseboat building industry.

What would your view be on letting the population of the Maldives settle on Arran, say? And, more seriously, how should we manage that sort of thing?

Claude @ 21,

I did not know that.

The stats you produced there deserve wider dissemination.

27. Donut Hinge Party

“What would your view be on letting the population of the Maldives settle on Arran, say? And, more seriously, how should we manage that sort of thing?”

Well, India’s a lot closer, and landlocked – not sure why they’d want to trade one small island for another.

That said, this is pre-meditated migration, not the case of a persecuted individual seeking refuge. They’ve benefitted from an island paradise, and now they’re suffering the detriments.

For a mass evacuation of a Sovereign nation, if they want our land then they sign over all local governing funds and become a principality of the UK. (1.26bn per year buys a lot of prefab housing) They pay taxes to us, and are subject to the same welfare restrictions of any UK citizens. The poorly qualified can then support themselves by working in care homes and call centres whilst being trained, and then integrate themselves into the UK.

That’s what I’d do, and I’d sleep like a baby doing it.

I trust that you will present all the necessary data, regardless of how much it might harm a particular perspective – be it pro or anti immigration.

Of course.

The data is what it is. It’s then up to people to make their own value judgements as to the specific weight they place on any particular piece of evidence and whether that alters their perspective on immigration in any particular direction.

That’s the essence of the debate.

What I would hope to achieve, if nothing else, is to encourage people to moving beyond talking about immigration in terms of sweeping generalisations and towards an understanding that different type of immigration raise different issues and, therefore, require very different policy responses.

It is, for example, perfectly possible to take the view that restrictions on the movement of labour are economically undesirable while, at the same time, favouring limits on grants of settlement or the acquisition of citizenship, the implications of which are very different when looked at in the long-term.

Immigration is not just a matter of how much but also what kind, where and under what terms.

Unity,

I too am looking forward to this. For I think there is a lot of percieved wisdom floating around. I hope you keep it as simple as possible though.

When’s the first post due up?

30. chairman moo

Was this Sunny’s idea? He wants a few more immigrants because one or two might arrive in the UK, undercut the local cab drivers, save up for a ‘puter and broadband and find themselves on line. Unaccustomed to the usual high standards of blogging literacy and intellectual and moral coherence, they might just stumble across this place and think they’ve reached some kind of middle brow debating environment. They might even get around to posting something.

If things go well, Mr Hundal might even be able to drop the highly questionable practice of counting those Twittery things as posts to boost his figures. Let’s face it, he’s haemorrhaging readers. Who, in their right mind is going to come on here to read the standard fare of worthy, predictable liberal posturing and the usual gang of mutually appreciative rent-a-clones?

Cue the predictable responses of

a) racist
b) well..you’re here aren’t you?
c) a bunch of dodgy figures ‘objectively’ proving that ‘in real terms’ this site is the most ‘read’ thing since the little Red Book
d) accusations of an affiliation with the Mail
e) ‘Astroturfing’ blah blah..
f) deletion. Most likely since the immaculately ‘liberal’ Mr Hunal adopts a Stalinist approach to free speech. (his one real claim to Left Wing ‘orthodoxy’)

btw..i’m just waiting to get out of work and nip down the pub…half an hour to go..plenty of time to provoke a few liberal goons into spluttering action.
Do yourselves a favour..ignore this post. Give dignity a run out. Your apoplectic ranting and gesticulating just make you all look even stupider. If indeed such a thing is possible.

When’s the first post due up?

Monday

Donut Hinge Party,

Interesting response.

You are firstly assuming, correct me if I am wrong, that they would be able or allowed to continue to govern themselves, more or less as they see fit. Which I’d have thought would be an issue, but, however.

At what point would the host nation try to apply it’s standards over the earth it sold? I would guess it wouldn’t be too long.

I am raising this as a genuine prospect. Is democracy strong enough to seceede territory without a fight to reclaim it’s jurisdiction?

Anyway, here is a nice photograph of Arran.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/24074

The peaks of Arran are above the water level for most of England. Though you wouldn’t want to live there.

33. Donut Hinge Party

“You are firstly assuming, correct me if I am wrong, that they would be able or allowed to continue to govern themselves, more or less as they see fit.”

Well, only inasmuch as the Scots can, nothing that would contravene English Criminal Law, and in a sort of rolling ‘volution’ which would integrate them over a period of generations.

Personally, it’s not as if we’re doing anything with Arran, anyway; it’d be good to see it being used – admittedly, only if it was sympathetically with the land. That photo of it is about as close as I’m likely to get anyway.

chairman moo,

Eh!

I think this is a popular place to comment. And Sunny Hundal is only a part of that, not the whole….

But, lets see your web statsitcs….

I wouldn’t care too much if it dropped by 50% if it excluded people like you.

Just saying….

I’m looking forward to this a great deal and I may include some of the data into Poles Apart, as we always have a Q&A in the show and people do present some issues regarding immigration and I like to be armed with knowledge.

Having said that, as we can already see, threads like this to attract the racist, xenophobic fraternity to the comments so a watchful eye will need to be kept on the exchanges and spamming by bigots and I’d like to echo Douglas Clark’s thoughts that a reduction in traffic would be small price to pay for a reasoned discussion.

Here’s hoping.

Chairman Moo:

Was this Sunny’s idea? No, mine…

Cue the predictable responses of

a) racist

Actually i had ‘cunt’ more in mind but you’re free to self-define if you wish…

b) well..you’re here aren’t you?

Can soon fix that if you’re desperate…

c) a bunch of dodgy figures ‘objectively’ proving that ‘in real terms’ this site is the most ‘read’ thing since the little Red Book

My penis is big enough not to be concerned with stat pRon – how’s your?

d) accusations of an affiliation with the Mail

Implies a degree of literacy of which you could never be accused.

e) ‘Astroturfing’ blah blah..

Did I mention that your IP address tracks to ‘I’m so cool’ and ‘Monkeyfish’, which would make you incompetent.

f) deletion. Most likely since the immaculately ‘liberal’ Mr Hunal adopts a Stalinist approach to free speech. (his one real claim to Left Wing ‘orthodoxy’)

Now why would I do that when I can sit back and let everyone see what a complete and utter cunt you’re making of yourself?

37. chairman moo

“I think this is a popular place to comment. And Sunny Hundal is only a part of that, not the whole….

But, lets see your web statsitcs….”

Well it looks to me like a sort of low to medium traffic sort of place until you notice that the first twenty or so posts are these Twitter things followed by the same people making the same cliched reactions to entirely predictable articles. It’s sad, jaded and dying on its feet. As for the “statsitcs”: I don’t have any. Do you? However, I have deduced from a cursory inspection that this is a fairly unremarkable, uninspiring place and you are losing comments fast. If it weren’t for a loyal little clique, you would be gone already.

Maybe you might start to improve things by actually engaging with posters rather than insulting them for failing to meet a preconceived threshold of what probably counts as ‘liberal orthodoxy’ to your highly prejudiced mindsets. You are trying to outdo each other in displaying your liberality and antireactionary zeal and in doing so have failed to notice that you have adopted a highly dogmatic, inflexible credo which might be viewed as “New Labour Quangocrat times ten” regardless of the fact the the rest of rational society (the bit that keeps things in proportion) moved on years ago. As a result, you look like a bunch of middle-aged saddos trying to impress the yoof with your hip hop identity schtick. Time to grow up.

DHG

Well done for no losing it…nice bit of decorum. You are learning. Btw what is this DHG business? Thought long and hard about it. Best I can come up with is “Donut Hinge’s Geishaboy”. Am I close?

Unity

As you are proposing an evidence based analysis of immigration, do you intend to take on the risk (being accused of racism) of examining the historical impact on the UK of different groups of immigrants?

For example, there is a general perception that the impact of the Ugandan Asians has been highly positive whilst that of the Albanians, say, has been less so.

It would be interesting to have the facts if they exist.

Wow Chairman Moo is I’m So Cool and MonkeyFish?

Now it all makes sense why he/she is such a divot.

pagar:

You’re talking about perceptions though aren’t you? I don’t have a negative view of Albanians, do you?

40. chairman moo

Bingo!

That’s more like it. A bit of real Liberal rage.

“Get off my blog..or I’ll swear a lot”…you’re so proletarian you lot. Or rather wish you were..As I’ve said so many many times before…spouting identity and diversity bollox doesn’t make you anything to do with the left..just useful idiots for the twats who look on with a sardonic grin while you lot keep it real and divided. Where’s the opposition? It’s getting itself an identity makeover…again.

25 years of freemarket fundamentalism, organised labour up a creek with no fuckin paddle and what’s the Left doing? Collating immigration figures and exposing the fuckin Mail as right wing. Way to go Gramsci.

Glad to see you’re keeping tabs on me.

41. chairman moo

PS

Quick..run tell uncle Sunny to get out the deletion device. I might call you a few bad names and point out what a bunch of useless dilettantes you all are..playing the radical while Rome burns.

Twang…..Oh no another string on your ‘radical’ just snapped.

I don’t have a negative view of Albanians, do you?

Obviously not. That would make me a racist.

But there is a perception that the Albanians have exported their criminal fraternity here and that they spend most of their time pimping prostitutes from Soho walk ups.

It would be good to have the evidence to disprove the racists who buy into this perception.

Did I make it through the minefield?

pagar:

Excellently well made through the minefield! I understand what you mean now but I think those perceptions are rarely rooted in act are they? Personally, negative feelings towards Albanians may be rooted in connections with Romani people, the darker hue of their skin and as they’ve come in smaller numbers, a safe bet to target for racist abuse.

Who knows? Let’s see what interesting posts we get sent our way.

And yet there were only 25,000 Ugandan Asians (with dark skins).

The perception is that they have worked hard, contributed to our economic benefit and many are now millionaires.

If that perception is true, it would be interesting to analyse why they have been so successful.

Ugandan Asians though encountered troubles of their own when they first arrived, Albanians are relatively new to the scene and also, as a side issue, there is some interesting reports of the Ugandan Asians racism towards black Africans back in Uganda and once in the UK.

It is a complex business.

PS: it might be useful to note that Ugandan Asians were middle class and brought middle class skills to the UK ‘used’ to Asians (to a degree of course).

47. chairman moo

“Excellently well made through the minefield! I understand what you mean now but I think those perceptions are rarely rooted in act are they? Personally, negative feelings towards Albanians may be rooted in connections with Romani people, the darker hue of their skin and as they’ve come in smaller numbers, a safe bet to target for racist abuse.”

Fuckin hell man..sort out the grammar.

#Excellently well made through the minefield#!!

I thought you were a teacher? Isn’t there some kinda literacy test?

#but I think those perceptions are rarely rooted in act are they?#

“rooted in act”??? WTF? What act? Act 4 scene 3..this is real life we’re talking about not some subsidised fuckin yoof drama workshop redemption drive.

Did you mean “rooted in action”? Whose action?

Did you mean “rooted in actuality”? What would anyone on here know about that?.oh shit forgot..you’re all ‘expert’ statisticians.

#Personally, negative feelings towards Albanians may be rooted in connections with Romani people#

“You seem to be saying your own negative feelings towards Albanians are due to your prejudice against the Roma.”

Very candid..a refreshing admission..do the rest of your little gang know about this?

“…the darker hue of their skin and as they’ve come in smaller numbers, a safe bet to target for racist abuse.”

Oh I see..you’re saying your prejudice is OK (a safe bet) because there aren’t that many of them. That’s very mean DHG..and extremely cowardly.

Why do you have so much trouble expressing yourself? No wonder our kids are leaving school functionally illiterate with you teaching them. Not to mention the poor Albanian kids. I bet you just ignore them and call them names when they ask for help.
And don’t try to imply I’ve taken this out of context..read it again. It’s either pure gibberish or an admission of racial prejudice.

PS Shouting cunt, ballbag and fucking in various combinations isn’t sophisticated invective. It’s playground stuff. Mind you..why am I telling you. You’re a teacher aren’t you? Let’s have a few of your withering dismissive putdowns DHG…it’s so much more impressive than just waiting for Sunny to clear up and stop you looking a dick.

48. chairman moo

OK I’m off out.

But, in the immortal words of Fu Manchu…I’ll be back

49. Curious Freedom

A lot of the extreme left rhetoric on immigration is just pure baseless ideological sound bites bearing no resemblance to reality and it will not help immigrants or their offspring in the long run nor will it solve any real problems and merely serves to fuel the rise of the BNP.

We do know through official sources that African-Caribbean’s are involved in the lions share of shootings in the capital (over 70%) and that they make up the largest group in knife crime and gang rapes; in fact a staggering 92% of all reported gang rapes are by non-western immigrants / non-western second – third generation immigrants.

Just as we know that in Europe, particularly as now widely reported in Scandinavia, rape is a vastly and disproportionately a BME crime, especially of Muslims. In just one example in Norway it was recently revealed that two out of three of all rapes in Oslo were committed by a non-western immigrant every single reported aggravated rape (rape with serious violence) in the past three years has been carried out by a non-western immigrant.

This is the truth and as such cannot be racist, but no doubt will be deemed as be with much virulence, malice and contrived contempt.

I had a similar debate lead to another blog from LC a while back and for just daring to present such facts and link to the MSM reports confirming it brought me torrents of hate and personal abuse and even threats to cut my throat and that is the atmosphere that this issue brings; but lots of ordinary people are sick of dancing around the elephant in the room and want someone to address these issues honestly so that the cause can be dealt with and our quality of life can be returned.

Nowt wrong with that.

I think the comment above by Curious Freedom is exactly the kind of racist nonsense that all the immigration pieces will be inundated with.

First off they drag out the gun crime statistic, hoping vainly that this will prove their racist point that black people commit more crime when in reality, if you look at the ethnic breakdown of crime, more white people commit crime than non-white people do in the UK.

This all comes down to the BNP myth of non-indiginous crime, which tacitly suggests that if all the non-whites and non-indiginous people were forcibly repatriated crime would somehow grind to a halt.

Nonsense of course but far easier to blame ‘the other’ for crime than the issues that course crime, primarily poverty, which is far harder to combat and far more complex to deal with.

It’s like the racists that point to how many African Americans are in prison in the US, as of this proves African Americans are more naturally attuned to crime, rather than the fact that America still has terrible problems with racism that have long-term impacts upon the population and that more African Americans are living in poverty and that is the main driver to crime, never mind the increased barriers faced by those who aren’t white.

And all good racists drag out the Scandinavian story, as if rapes and serious crime never existed in certain nations until non-whites and the dreaded Muslims turned up and ‘spoilt’ it all.

It is all about presenting elements out of context in order to spread hateful lies and myths, just as racists through time have done, whoever ‘the other’ has been, make them out to be criminals and less than human, or somehow beastly, so they can be attacked with impunity.

Idiotic definitely but disgusting never the less.

DHG, Sunny, Unity et al..

But what have YOU actually significantly said??

WHY do Afro Carribeans KNOW of this country OR Africans?

Come on the brainy bunch! Have we forgotten about colonisation?? Or the fucked up situation that exists with the World Bank and IMF??

But yes. Go to countries that do NOT belong you, raoe them of everything and then tie them in a bind that means that the richest coporations in the West are in control of all the money made from cocoa or rice and THEN try and invade them for oiil but please get pissed off cause they are here!!

Jesus, the stupidity in these comments is so pathetic it’s embarrassing.

You want FREE MARKET but in YOUR terms.

Piss off then. Get every Western business to LEAVE Africa etc and lets see how you guys would survive without sh*t like chocolate you take for granted.

Joke.

52. Curious Freedom

DHG your comment is exactly the sort of ‘pure baseless ideological sound bites bearing no resemblance to reality’ that I was talking about.

Your first recourse is to smear me as ‘racist’ for speaking the truth, as fully predicated, so that you can then go on to, in your own words “make [me] out to be [a] criminal and less than human, or somehow beastly, so [I] can be attacked with impunity” and then you make up your constructs about what my comment actually said and then attack your own inventions with such self righteous indignation that it is truly tragic that it is not just some twisted parody or satire.

Typically, you haven’t actually said anything of substance at all. Nothing.

When 2% of our population become responsible for over 70% of shootings in our capital we every right to ask why; when armed police are ordered carry out routine patrols in London for the first time in British history as a result and because of 30 per cent surge in gun crime in London this year alone (only to be reversed after massive bad publicity) we have every right to ask why.

The same with stabbings and gang rapes. We have every right to ask why and what can be done to fix it without some hysteric screaming racist.

I didn’t sugges that “if all the non-whites and non-indiginous people were forcibly repatriated crime would somehow grind to a halt” at all, you did that yourself. What is obvious though is that there would be much, much less of the serious violent crimes that blight society and that is undeniable if you really want to go there, but in reality what we really need to do now is find out what the hell has gone wrong and fix it.

That will not happen with hysterics like you around. The problems will slowly fester and slowly combust.

What I did actually say is that ignoring or hysterically trying to shout down debate on the issue as you have does not help anyone, least of all the BME themselves. According to a report from the Metropolitan Police, black people in London are four times more likely to be murdered as whites and 12 times more likely to be suspects in homicide cases. I am sure that most in the BME communities do not want this, and it will only be tackled through honesty, not baseless ideological posturing.

You come up with the same glib and disgraceful invention that “all good racists drag out the Scandinavian story” as if it is all really just some inconvenient ‘story’ that bores you, and not a reality of hell for many, many woman (but mostly young girls) and their families in these countries.

Again you pretend that I have said “rape didn’t exist before”, when in reality what has been said is that when a group in less then 5% of the population, a recent addition at that, commit around 70% of ALL rapes in these countries then again, people have every right to highlight it as an extremely serious issue and demand that something be done about it. In fact aside from the hugely exponential explosion of crime and rape in Scandinavia, even more disturbing facts emerge such as in Sweden rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six times as common today as they were a generation ago.

When the people of Norway and Oslo find that every single aggravated rape (on top of two-thirds of all rapes) in the past three years have been committed by non-western immigrant they have a right to debate the issue. Every right.

That is not ‘racist’ or ‘racism’ by any true or sane definition.

It really is people like you DHG that are the real problem here and people like you that are the very fuel that propels parties like the BNP.

Curious Freedom:

And your comment is quote mining bigotry at its worst, where you take a fact and then twist it to suit your racist ideology.

You speak of the truth as if you are the soul owner of it, which is not the case, then you build a straw man in that I am trying to make you out as less than human, when I am not, racism is human, all too human. But in trying to make this out to be true you can then play victim or an imaginary attack. It wont wash.

And just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean it doesn’t have substance.

What about the vast majority of the population being responsible for the massive financial fraud, economic mis-managment and crime of the last few years? Does that mean all white people should be kept away from the finance industry because they are inherently flawed when it comes to numbers and can’t repress their natural greed and evil?

Of course not but I make this point to expose your flawed logic.

I’m glad you have outed yourself as a racist though by claiming that if the BNP’s fantasy of the UK actually occurred crime would fall, as if crime is a non-indginous problem? Madness. The fact you blame all serious crime on non-whites is enough to mark you out as a racist and I understand if that is an intolerable term to you, as it is to other BNP bigots but you cannot have your racist cake and eat it.

“That will not happen with hysterics like you around. The problems will slowly fester and slowly combust.”

It is you who is hysterical with your apocalyptic visions of multicultural Britain.

I have not ignored or hysterically shouted down, you confuse someone debating back with you, I understand that, it is necessary for you to play the victim but that does not wash here.

I am sure you see no connection at all with the higher levels of poverty in the many BME communities and the discrimination faced and crime, rather you see a racial connection which is in turn what makes you a racist.

And again, a straw man with regards to the Scandinavian story, you put words in my mouth in order to paint me as the bad guy. Pointless stuff.

And in your desire to paint ‘others’ as inherently flawed you draw upon anecdotes from other European nations, not the UK, such is your desperation. You pick out the actions of a few in some nations to draw a false picture, classic quote mining.

“It really is people like you DHG that are the real problem here and people like you that are the very fuel that propels parties like the BNP.”

This it the oddest thing you say, because you know full well that I’m not a real problem at all, tolerant, open-minded and not a racist or willing to fall for right-wing myths, that makes me a danger to bigots like you, because you can’t just trot out your lies without challenge.

And as for fuelling the BNP, brilliant, tiny old me fuels the BNP? Make your mind up.

Ignorance, lies and fear fuels the BNP and you are full of all three and while e speak of propulsion, 1.6% of the UK does not a movement make.

Also, you seem very familiar…

Well, it didn’t take long for this to degenerate into juvenile (and, I might add, highly amusing) insult trading, did it? How predictable. When Unity et al actually get as far as publishing their proposed series of articles it should be a real laugh riot. Does anyone really think that there is such a thing as “the truth about immigration”? I’m beginning to suspect that if there is, and it’s actually discovered, noone will give a shit because they’ve already made their minds up and nothing will change that.

In amongst everything else, DHG mentions the fact that African – Americans/Black Americans (choose the label you’re happy with) are over – represented in American Prisons. You don’t have to go as far as America to see this, it’s true in the UK. BME people are massively over – represented at all levels of the criminal justice process – they are more likely to be arrested, more likely to be charged, more likely to be found guilty and a whole lot more likely to be given a custodial sentence. Now, the question needs to be asked “why is this”? Is it a systemic racist bias? Is it linked to social factors (and if so, what are they)? Is it something else entirely? Is it all of the above? I doubt we can actually have a debate about this, though. It’s much more fun to carry on screaming insults at each other, isn’t it?

Mr F:

As I said in my first comment, I look forward to the posts but not the comments that follow because threads about immigration here always attract BNP types, some overt who type out and out racist slurs and some more, how to say, insidious efforts.

It’s a shame.

And I do agree with you that when have facts ever stopped people making their minds up about something?

In answer to your question, although not a definitive answer by any means I feel it is a mix of racist bias, we are not rid of our racist trappings just yet, social factors enabled by more severe racial prejudice such as a proclivity to ghettoising these communities and the role of filling lower-skilled and lower paid work historically in the UK.

Crime everywhere is connected to poverty and opportunity, not on racial make-up and unfortunately, the majority of non-white communities are more likely to be in such conditions than white ones, although to be clear, of course poverty effects many white communities.

56. chairman moo

DHG

Hate to say it but I find we’re pretty much on the same side over this one. Problem is you’re out of your depth here…Curious Freedom, for all his little hangups, is after all a functionally literate adult human being etc. It’s not enough dismissing everything you haven’t got the nous to deal with as a ‘strawman’.

You’re starting to bluster …again..get your act together. This is what I was saying above: striking your liberal poses, “tolerant, open-minded and not a racist or willing to fall for right-wing myths”, assuming the opposition accepts your (entirely reasonable) assumption of the moral high ground…then dismissing him without addressing the argument except for making sweeping, non-specific generalisations just doesn’t cut it.

As a result, lines like “that makes me a danger to bigots like you, because you can’t just trot out your lies without challenge.” end up looking like empty childish bragging.

You’re not a ‘danger’, he’s well ahead on points..no doubt your little gang will tell you different, but he is.
As for his ‘lies’..expose them as such. Shouting strawman and moving on looks like artless evasion.
If you’re not up to it DHG, leave it to the big boys eh?

@55 “I feel it is a mix of racist bias, we are not rid of our racist trappings just yet, social factors enabled by more severe racial prejudice” and “Crime everywhere is connected to poverty and opportunity” yes and yes, I don’t disagree, but I think that the racism/poverty argument needs to be developed a lot further than it usually is (not a criticism of your post, I do realise that this is a blog and it’s not possible to put forward the entire thesis in the space allowed). I also feel that these issues are viewed far too simplistically when, in fact, the way poverty, ethnicity (set against the background of larger society) etc influence trends in crime is extremely complex. I don’t think this furthers the dabate much, I just felt the need to chip in.

One additional pedantic point, some types of offending, particularly sexual offending, are not particularly closely correlated with poverty etc as violent and aquisitive offending.

Oi

Piss off Chairman Moo!

Play nice with a wellcome card and you’ll get the same back.

Whatcha say on colonisation that made people realise Europe even existed? Why did you heroes do this to my ancestors?? 🙁

Call me ungrateful but the crap, my dad had to go through so much from the English, I wonder, is it worth it?.

I’d rather swing by those ungrateful trees, grooming, I guess.

59. Curious Freedom

DHG do you really type out these completely empty comments each time that bear no relation to the topic you are supposedly addressing or do you just have a pool of substanceless prepared comments to post, one size fits all?

Once again you have used hundreds of words to express absolutely nothing at all, expect to smear me a ‘racist’ once more (in fact several times more, I hope you have a sticky key for that word) and then to bizarrely project your own projections on to me and then end on some sort of conspiracy note, another odd device of the hysteric. How surreal.

But the reality is that the real facts are above. BME crime is massively disproportionate. It’s true. None of your hot air and angry smears can change that. What we have to do now is move forward, identify it honestly and fix it.

Only the truly delusional could take their own construct of “if all the non-whites and non-indiginous people were forcibly repatriated crime would somehow grind to a halt” apply it to someone who said no such thing and clearly demonstrates as much and then claim victory when that person uses your own construct to illustrate that it wouldn’t stop crime at all, but it would clearly, given reality and the facts (two concepts apparently alien to you) have massively reduced it. Again, how surreal.

And of course, you are at your own constructs again, your very own strawmen when you come up with this line “The fact you blame all serious crime on non-whites is enough to mark you out as a racist” when I haven’t done anything of the sort. I have clearly defined the serious crimes that the BME are responsible for; if using facts is ‘racist’ in your book (and it would seem to be the case) then you are hopelessly lost to reality.

I think we can safely ascertain the extent of your departure from reality by this little gem, that could so easily have came from a Soviet Commissar “you see a racial connection which is in turn what makes you a racist.” That statement in itself is clearly an amazing piece of Marxist gibberish but more so when there clearly IS a racial connection and all but a fool could fail to see that 2% of a group within a population committing the levels and types of crime detailed above make that connection so blindly obvious that is even blindly obvious to that community itself.

The black community are fully aware that gun and knife crime in London is overwhelming from their own community and the black media like “The Voice” where much of the facts in the previous comments came from make no secret of it. Nor do the police with their permanent “Operation Trident” unit that deals exclusively with black gun and knife crime.

The same can applied to the group with 5% of the population in Scandinavia that is commuting the vast majority of the rapes and massively disproportionately so. Even the Muslim elders in Copenhagen have recognised the issue as uniquely their own. How could they fail to?

No, what we have here DHG is precisely what I described in the very first sentence of my first comment:

“A lot of the extreme left rhetoric on immigration is just pure baseless ideological sound bites bearing no resemblance to reality and it will not help immigrants or their offspring in the long run nor will it solve any real problems and merely serves to fuel the rise of the BNP”

You finish with a citation of 1.6% of the population voting BNP when the reality is that it actually took 6.2% of the vote in the last major elections (with all Nationalist parties getting 22.7%) and gaining two MEP’s on top of over 100 councillors and a member of the GLA when less then a decade ago they had NO elected officials.

In fact in the last yougov poll, 22% said they would seriously consider voting for the BNP and 9% said they would.

Polls also reveal that immigration is the biggest issue of concern for people in the coming general election.

So as I say, the days when hysterics like you could scream ‘racist’ at someone and the debate would close down is long gone.

Every time you do it now, it fuels the BNP.

People like you, DHG, are their best recruiters. They should be paying you.

60. chairman moo

rantersparadise

“Whatcha say on colonisation that made people realise Europe even existed? Why did you heroes do this to my ancestors??”

And you hold me personally responsible…or do you want me to answer for previous generations? OK..I’ll give it a go…a wild shot in the dark..

I’m going to hazard a wild guess that it was to exploit you economically at whatever price that might have meant for “your ancestors”. You want an apology? From me? Or all white people? Or just ‘English’ people?…you seem to hold the English in particular disdain. And…actually…since I’ve got 4 Irish grandparents, that kinda lets me off the hook yeah?

Come on you English bastards, me and ranters paradise want a fuckin apology for what you did to our ancestors…get on your knees and beg for forgiveness…specially you DHG…you look like the exploitative type.

“Call me ungrateful but the crap, my dad had to go through so much from the English, I wonder, is it worth it?.”

Is what worth it?

PS

What is it that you think my post was saying, rantersparadise? I think you’re another one on LiberalConspiracy that isn’t actually especially good at matters of basic comprehension. Is it just that we’re all meant to sit back and cheer on whichever wide-eyed simpleton is holding the ‘liberal torch’ at any particular moment, regardless of their ability to construct a coherent argument..or in some cases a coherent sentence?

To answer your question Pagar, the crime stata are not on the agenda for this series which is looking specifically at migration itself, but its something I’ll come back to before the election certainly.

Part of the difficulty is that breakdowns by nationality are available only for the prison population. The data for offences, arrests, non-custodial sentences, acquittals, etc. is broken down only by census categories for ethnicity and will require some heavy duty number-crunching to get anything workable.

There’s also not that much to work with – 5-6 years worth of data tops at the moment broken down by ethnicity, which makes it difficult to find concrete trends – and the data is patchy. The ethnicity of offenders is recorded in 81% of cases that go to Crown Court but only 21% of cases in local magistrates courts.

That said, the most recent prison stats show 166 Albanians doing porridge at the moment, so its likely that the media attention that was given to that nationality was disproportionate to the actual levels of criminality.

And this is all before Unity even presents the evidence.

Who are chairman moo, ranters paradise and curious freedom?

One things for sure, they have made up their minds before the evidence is even presented….

I loved the insanity of this:

Come on you English bastards, me and ranters paradise want a fuckin apology for what you did to our ancestors…get on your knees and beg for forgiveness…specially you DHG…you look like the exploitative type.

It is as if DHG was personally responsible for the Irish potato famine. What utter shite. I am no more responsible for slavery say than your average African. Collective culpability may be appropriate at the time, it is certainly not something you inherit.

So you can fuck off in expecting an apology.

63. Donut Hinge Party

Woah! Woah! You’re Irish?

Statistics show that the Irish committed more murders and terrorist attacks on UK soil in the 1980’s than any other race.

More Irish people badly tarmac other people’s drives than any other race

More Irish people get violently drunk of Guinness and vomit in the streets than any other race.

The Irish as a race are part of the EU superstate and have embraced the Euro.

You haven’t got a leg to stand on when it comes to racial profiling.

As for gang rape – there were 85 cases in the UK in the UK in 2008. There were, by way of comparison, 782 convictions for distribution of child pornography in 2007, 273 for sexual assault of a child under 13. Shall we look at the racial stats for those crimes as well, and will that lead us to make conclusions about skin tones?

Certainly, in the last few cases of child sexual abuse I can think of – with one notable exception in Cardiff – all offenders have been overwhelmingly white.

“It is as if DHG was personally responsible for the Irish potato famine. What utter shite.”

I believe he was actually taking the mick.

65. Curious Freedom

Donut Hinge Party, you are yet another of those who types lots of words that have little to no meaning. Just empty soundbites.

The IRA were a proscribed terrorist organisation that had declared war on the UK and deemed all Britons as legitimate targets, they were not disparate civilian immigrants brought here, we are told, for our economic benefit and as such a comparison in crime is ludicrous.

You then go off on a bizarre, erroneous and ‘racist’ rant on spurious links between gang rape and paedophilia.

You start off on a false premise by claiming that there were 85 cases of gang rape in the whole of the UK in 2008 when there were actually 93 reported cases in the 2008/2009 tax year in London alone so either you are completely ignorant of the real problem or you are just dishonest.

Either one is not really good.

You then go on to compare gang rape to the ‘distribution of child pornography’ which is bizarre to say the least. Even your comparison of gang rape to the ‘sexual assault of a child’ is completely erroneous when we consider that most gang rapes are of young girls who are usually under the age of consent and consequently children themselves.

Why did you make these comparisons?

Because in your own words: “in the last few cases of child sexual abuse I can think of” … “all offenders have been overwhelmingly white” and so you then use this purely personal and clearly biased observation to conclude that paedophilia is an overwhelming white issue.

How ‘racist.’

You do say as some sort of caveat: “Shall we look at the racial stats for those crimes as well, and will that lead us to make conclusions about skin tones?” but you don’t actually do it. You just make a wild leap based upon which news pieces you may have seen.

Whereas all of the facts I have given are from independent official sources and are not disputed by anyone.

But whilst you are on the topic of paedophilia and attempting to racially link it, you may find this of interest:

“A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences

The trial came amid growing concern at the attitudes of some Asian men towards white girls which campaigners for women claim few people wish to address.

Parents have complained that in parts of the country with large Asian communities white girls as young as 12 are being targeted for sex by older Asian men yet the authorities are unwilling to act because of fears of being labelled racist.

Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.

Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success, with most of them being in a state of denial about it.

However, Ms Cryer added: “I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940.ece

I will wait for the rest of the articles in this series before passing any more comment on the subject, and I will honestly consider the promised evidence.

66. chairman moo

#More Irish people badly tarmac other people’s drives than any other race#

Are you denying the right of the travelling community the right to identify themselves as a distinct racial grouping? Statistics show on poor tarmacing are notoriously hard to break down since the Commision on tarmacing standards only started compiling racial data in 2007!

However recent anecdotal evidence suggests that many cowboy tarmacers are recent arrivals from the Emerald Isle and consider themselves of a distinct and separate cultural and racial heritage to the more traditional pikey operatives. Apparently the feeling is mutual. Your inference that all poor tarmac jobs are undertaken by “the Irish” is therefore a sweeping generalisation which is both inaccurate and insensitive. I can only conclude you are a racist…you are your BNP colleagues have no place in a civilised society. Go and boil your head.

You may be interested to know that an elderly couple not far from me recently had their drive done by a couple of Albanians. To quote the good lady of the house “I could have done a better job myself with a fuckin fish-slice…I’m sure the little one with the moustache was gay”

Donut Hinge Party – not to mention Irish theme pubs, which are a blight in every city in the western world.

68. Donut Hinge Party

“The IRA were a proscribed terrorist organisation that had declared war on the UK and deemed all Britons as legitimate targets,”

Oh, well that’s all right, then, as long as they were proscribed. Makes me feel like a bad sport for not being at the Arndale centre or the Brighton conference when they decided to blow it up. Comparisons with Al-Qaeda are of course entirely fatuous, as one is a marginalised people fighting to remove the influence of unwanted states from territories they believe to be theirs and the other, er. . .

Seem to have touched a nerve there, regardless, which is nice. I’d poke it again, but I don’t think it’ll do any good.

“You start off on a false premise by claiming that there were 85 cases of gang rape in the whole of the UK in 2008 when there were actually 93 reported cases in the 2008/2009 tax year in London alone so either you are completely ignorant of the real problem or you are just dishonest.”

I took financial year, you took tax year – sue me.

As for the racial profiling, I haven’t got the time to go through these sheet by sheet, but you’re welcome to check them.

http://www.kidshield.co.uk/kidshield_paedophile_statistics.htm

One of the reasons that less immigrants are convicted for these crimes are frankly that they usually occur from family members, and recent immigrants generally don’t have families.

At the last count, about 50% of children in care went on to prison.
79% of children in care are white.
http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/consultations/downloadableDocs/EIA%20Final.doc.

And if you can manage to conflate African Caribbean, Eastern European and apparently Asian into one whole “Evil Immigrants” package, and judge all by the standards of a few, then I think I can get away with squeezing Irish travellers (clue in the title) and Bog standard Euro-loving Paddies together.

69. Curious Freedom

Donut Hinge Party, your bizarre and pathetic attempts at mockery and obfuscation failed the first time when I exposed you for the liar, idiot and ‘racist’ you are with your made up figures, ludicrous comparisons and hate based wild assumptions and your bizarre and pathetic attempts at mockery and obfuscation have failed again in your child like attempt at a retrospective justification.

I have already said I will wait for the rest of the articles before passing more comment on this subject and I look forward to exposing and humiliating you again then if you persist in your lies and idiocy.

Happy Sunday.

Glad to see the racist are still in full effect in this thread, as with all immigration based threads here, they can’t stand it when their silly ideas are taken apart.

And I love how a person hiding behind multiple identities in order to spam a liberal blog with hateful little barbs of fiction is somehow an arbiter on what is right and wrong, deluded to the highest degree and a sad shambles of a human, bless him.

Curious Freedom/Sentinel:

At least you’ve stopped pretending to be me now!

You honestly think that by saying something has no value or is empty, somehow makes it so, you are not Jean-Luc Picard. “do you just have a pool of substanceless prepared comments to post, one size fits all?” Exactly what I was going to say to you!

SNAP!

I read your lengthy comments about nothing, where you attack me but offer little else and it does make me worry about your mental health. Especially as all you do is repeat the same lines as if they haven’t been dismissed as the bigoted ramblings of a racist mind.

Again, as you trot out racist lies about crime, most of which is committed by *shock horror* white folks, you fail to even embrace the reality of poverty and crime because that would no doubt cud your already myopic world view.

Also, you have no idea what MArxist is or Soviet, just tag lines from your feeble brain and limited intellectual pallet.

And in a classic error that reflects your backing of the British Nazi Party, you refuse to accept that 1.6% of the UK population voted BNP and quote the 6% figure which is the proportion of the vote, not the population of the UK you dolt! Followed by elected officials they have now, as if this makes them out to be some kind of huge movement in the UK.

The Greens are bigger.

Then, as in the other thread you spammed up with racist crap, you trot out the YouGov poll which has already been dismissed here so no need to go over that old chestnut you racist.

“Every time you do it now, it fuels the BNP.”

Are they listening to me? I have such power with them do I? HA! Nonsense, warped ramblings of an idiot.

And the epic failure that is your efforts to deal with DHP is quite amusing, you see no parallel in your smearing of an entire race with crimes but get all upset when it is pointed out that most child abusers are white.

You miss the point by such a distance it brought a smile to my face, as does your failure to rebut a single one of DHP take-downs of your quote-mined bigotry.

douglas clark:

“One things for sure, they have made up their minds before the evidence is even presented….”

Indeed, that’s the trouble with close-minded, spiteful and hate-ridden bigots; I’m thankful I’m not them.

Oh and Richard, if you’re siding with racist, you’re on the wrong side, just a thought.

71. Curious Freedom

Very well done DHG, you have managed to waste your time on yet more empty waffle, hundreds of words of it, and yet more pathetic moral posturing and lots and lots more bizarre conspiracy theory.

How perfectly surreal you are!

Even the guy on your side perfectly summed up your completely empty posts:

“It’s not enough dismissing everything you haven’t got the nous to deal with as a ’strawman…You’re starting to bluster …again..get your act together… This is what I was saying above: striking your liberal poses…then dismissing him without addressing the argument except for making sweeping, non-specific generalisations just doesn’t cut it…You’re not a ‘danger’, he’s well ahead on points..no doubt your little gang will tell you different, but he is…As for his ‘lies’..expose them as such. Shouting strawman and moving on looks like artless evasion…If you’re not up to it DHG, leave it to the big boys eh?”

Couldn’t have put it better myself, so I suppose that now makes me a suspect in your un-medicated world of actually being that poster!

Really, DHG you are a rather pathetic excuse of a “debater” and your demented conspiracy and victim tactic are reminiscent of that weird child every school has who makes up outlandish stories to get attention and sympathy, to distract away from the fact that they have nothing real to say or any talents and also that they stink of piss.

But I must admit, crazies like you do lighten the mood and are great entertainment for all, after all everyone loves a clown. I look forward to lots of laughter at you.

As I told Donut Hinge Party, I am now telling you: I have already said I will wait for the rest of the articles before passing more comment on this subject and I look forward to exposing and humiliating you again then if you persist in your lies and idiocy.

So you’d better make sure your one word contribution of ‘racist’ is programmed to a sticky key.

Happy Sunday mentalist.

Sentinel:

Keep trotting out your stale, tired lines because you can’t cope with an actual debate because of your closed mind, that’s cool, the more you do so, the more you paint yourself into a corner for everyone to see.

And add surreal to list of words you don’t know the meaning of…

The rest of your comment I must confess, I didn’t read because it is the same as all the rest of the tripe you vomit.

We all look forward to you keeping quiet until the articles actually appear, good luck with that.

Please do not feed the troll

And again! As soon as these cowards get challenged I find it very amusing that they immediately resort to underhand and idiotic tactics, such as impersonating me but in such a terrible way…

Honestly, it really is pathetic.

75. chairman moo

DHG

Who’s impersonated you and why? And How?

I happen to agree with you that immigrants in this country often face unwarranted and unconscionable levels of abuse and discrimination. These need to be challenged. However, if I were in such a position, I doubt I would wish, as an advocate, an hysterical gobshite with the erudition of a performing chimp.

Shouting ‘racist’ at anyone who voices a concern over the impact on wages, employment and job security is not only lacking in nuance, it is irrational, provocative and deeply dismissive of huge numbers of people with legitimate misgivings..ie the working class…although they ever seem to hit your radar…not to mention playing the liberal idiot for those with a ‘flexible workforce’/neocon agenda. Similarly over crime…screaming ‘racist’, ‘liar’. xenophobia etc is no substitute for a reasoned rebuttal. Now, you seem to be calling for some sort of mass murder of those you dislike. You really are a fuckin embarrassment.

As for your “someone’s been impersonating me” spiel..what are you alleging exactly..and who are you accusing? You see, having read your call for a mass extermination of ‘Nazis’, I doubt that it’s hard for anyone to imagine that you might have gone a little too far elsewhere and, rather than deal with the fallout, concocted a wild exculpatory fiction about ‘identity theft’. If you seriously claim to have been impersonated, perhaps you should look into that guy who used to do the PG Tips adverts…he’d have all the right contacts to take you off to a tee.

Sentinel:

For someone not commenting again until the articles you sure like to keep commenting. And keep calling me mentally ill, it won’t make it true, you sociopath.

And by all means, keep going with your personal attacks, it enables others to see you as you are, which is grand.

“I have pulled you apart and you know it.”

Wow, I’ve seen deluded behaviour here before but not to that degree, that is pretty far going even for you.

Multiple fake id coward:

Why do you care about the impersonation? And what makes you think anyone here cares about you odd little diatribes towards me? Seriously, like Sentinel, keep going, it only reflects poorly on you and illustrates how empty your putrid little rants are.

And the more you try and explain your backward and vacant ideas the more your deep set prejudice becomes clear.

An as you haven’t got it, the idiot pretending to be me banging on about Nazis isn’t me.

It’s not hard to grasp but clearly it is for you, poor sod.

77. chairman moo

“It’s not hard to grasp but clearly it is for you, poor sod.”

Is it?

78. chairman moo

Was that you, or him..or me..or all of us?

Not just a ranting buffoon…an M&S schizoid ranting buffoon. I can see my work here is done. I’ll wait until you’ve sought medical help and the anti-psychotics have kicked in before returning. It’s just too easy at the moment. You’re overweight, puffing, your timing’s gone and there’s a towel coming in from the corner.

79. chairman moo

OK sunshine.

You touring?…post some dates. I’ll let you know which one. Preferably the North East.

Multiple identity troll:

Alrready toured to North East, you’ll have to get your horse and cart out and travel to Manc or London.

See you here coward!

Sentinel:

Thanks for a link to a thread that proves you’re a racist again but nothing other than that.

Ignoring the rest of your blather and the deletion of the fake comments proves they are fake you goon, goodness me, it is not rocket science.

And seriously, come and see the show before you pass judgement on it, if you dare that is…

I love saying “I told you so.” (see post 54 because, actually, I told you so)

The series of articles on immigration hasn’t even started and this forum has degenerated into a parody of itself. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s top – notch entertainment, but it doesn’t bode well for the prospects of “intelligent debate” (there’s a fucking laugh, eh?) on the subject of immigration, does it? Looking on the bright side, I doubt anything’s been lost. There never was going to be an actual debate about the articles Unity plans to publish, was there? It seems that too many people already know, with absolute and complete certainty, what the “truth” is on this issue so why bother even to consider any other point of view. Much better to scream insults in an increasingly hysterical tone. Keep it up because it’s really fucking funny.

Mr F:

I said it at 35, so I beat you to it, always the way with these threads, I wish it wasn’t, what do you suggest?

@86

Well, I think there are two problems here:

a. People who come on this site to take the piss
b. The reaction of people who DON’T come on this site to take the piss to people who DO come on this site to take the piss.

There will always be people who fall into the group described in a. Their motivations vary, but the point is that they will always be there and you can’t control their behaviour. You could ban them, but I rather think that’s not what this site sees itself as being about.

What you can control, or at least influence, is the phenomenon described in b. So, I don’t suggest anything, apart from a bit of self – restraint which, I think you will admit, you may lack now and again. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a foaming at the mouth Nazi. Of course some are, but others may be, basically, well motivated but caught up in a particular viewpoint (eg a Daily Mail – type perspective on immigration) for a variety of irrational reasons. It may be possible, through presenting facts and reasonable argument, to persuade them otherwise. It will not be possible to persuade them through abuse, either of them directly or of others on this site. Abuse and insults will conribute to their entrenchment on the Daily Mail’s frontline.

As for those who come to take the piss, you may say that they deserve to be abused. Some (eg obvious racists) certainly do, others, at least in my opinion, don’t, but that’s irrelevant. Descending to the level of insult trading isn’t going to convert a committed racist (so don’t waste your time) or do anything but amuse someone who’s here to take the piss. It also runs the risk of alienating alot of people who are potential allies (or at least neutrals).

Notwithstanding all of the above, I would like to add that I am an infrequent visitor to this site, but I have come across an instance in the past where you claimed that remarks made on here under your name were made by an impostor to discredit you. At the time I didn’t believe this but I now do, for a variety of reasons, one being pagar’s post on another thread confirming that it happened to him. So, I can see why you lose your rag. This doesn’t mean I like you or agree with you, it just means that can see why you may go a tad over the top now and again.

84. Curious Freedom

DHG
“it, always the way with these threads”

It is when there are complete crackpots like you about. You really are a first class weirdo.

Is this really how you think you win arguments? With this crazy crap about spoofing and calling other commentators by different names? By accusing them of being some kind of stalker when they have been commenting on this site without even bumping into you?!

You need help. You really do.

“I wish it wasn’t, what do you suggest?”

Shut up and grow up, you headjob.

Mr F

After this nutjob accused me of spoofing I don’t believe a word of it. I think he is doing it himself and maybe even spoofing others for some sort of validation, who knows. He is crazy.

I think he is doing it to get lots of attention to plug his tax paid ‘show’ and for other reasons only apparent to a nutter.

85. chairman moo

Curious Freedom:

I’d stop it now mate, we’ve been shown up for what we are, which is pathetic little men, best if we retreat now, re-group over at Stormfront and then attack them with both barrels.


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