If I am Tory then I guess labour is doomed. I have voted labour since I have been 18, did doorsteps for them and have actually campaigned and been involved in campaigns for left parties pretty much since my Uni days. In more than one country —

But I am no loony left like you – This Prime Minister and his government is a tragedy. You really think we are in Afghanistan just because of America. Sound like the Germans and The French.

And he backstabbed Blair who i reckon was one of the better Prime Ministers since the 1950s

I wonder who the real idiot is here

You say:
‘’The ’statement’ was asking whether or not you had said something on an earlier thread (which is a question and was identified by this symbol ‘?’, which is known as a question mark or sometimes a query)….’
Er, no. Your libellous statement was that I had said a particularly vicious crime wasn’t a big deal if soldiers had done it. Sunny removed your comment with the following! words: ‘IF you’re going to say someone condoned rape, when it’s based on a bunch of bullshit – then you either retract or you shut the fuck up. It’s really that simple. I don’t give a fuck whether you like the army or not…That despicable comment has been deleted.’

But maybe both Sunny and I are telling fibs, eh?

Alas, ‘Shatterface’, you yourself said! ‘I retract my accusation that Dan condoned… ’.

You admitted then that you made an accusation, and now you lie about it. Okay, liar.

You continue: ‘your threats to sue resulted in a long series of sarky exchanges between myself and another poster opposed to British libel laws, the last of which had the punchline ‘BarackRoomLawyer’ (all one word).

I actually said! ‘Sunny, thank you for getting rid of the libellous comment by Shatterface. If the same comment had been made about someone hostile to Liberal Conspiracy, then it’s quite likely that he might have sued for libel, and unfortunately in this case there would not have been a defence.’

No threats there. Sunny can confirm that in my private emails with him I at no point threatened to sue Lib Con for libel.

So the minor point is that you’re a liar.

The more important point is that British casualties in Afghanistan are real people, not little rhetorical straw men to be trotted out by a disgusting individual like you, who in other threads is quite happy to insult soldiers. Every time you do that, ‘Shatterface’, it’s going to be another little episode of humiliation for you.

*Another idiot troll*: “never thought I would see the day when so many soldiers and families were complaining about being sent to war”

That felt good!

I never thought I would see the day when so many soldiers and families were complaining about being sent to war. What do they think they get paid for? If they don’t want to go of to war, don’t join up. I for one would not blame you one bit because it is quite obvious that you will be fighting on behalf of Anglo American oil companies and the Neo con agenda.

But to listen to all the generals and other members of the armed forces complain on a daily basis, the Taliban must be delighted. A few more hits and we will be out.

’2) there aren’t any helicopters suitable to buy that could have been bought and delivered in the last 3 years that would be suitable for use in Afghanistan (Chinook line closed 5 years ago, and it’s taking Boeing 3 years to re-open the line for Canada’s recent order; Blackhawks too small and completely different from rest of UK fleet *and* the line closed 2 years ago).’

Blackhawks aren’t too small for casevac and are in fact being used right now for that purpose by the US Air Force. As you would know if you either did some online research or, erm, spoke to someone who’d been out there, under the current system Chinooks and Blackhawks are both used for casevac duties. British and US medical teams fly in Chinooks; smaller US pararescue teams use Blackhawks. The Joint Operations Centre in Bastion will send Blackhawks out for casevac missions ahead of Chinooks if, for example, the designated Landing Zone is too small to take a Chinook or if there are believed to be land mines nearby, as is the case in much of Afghanistan. (The down draught from Chinooks can set mines off: this killed two soldiers in 3 Para’s tour in 2006).

As the above ought to show you: does it not give you at least some pause for thought that you are arguing about casualty evacuation in Afghanistan with someone who was *a medic involved in evacuating casualties in Afghanistan*? Is there not a slim chance that I know what I’m talking about here?

I was nearly getting blown up outside Gereshk last September while you were watching TV. Don’t issue any more threats to John B. You and the almost equally disgusting ‘Shatterface’ can end your self-appointed status as defenders of the British Army now. As a soldier, I don’t want the support of pricks like you.

This is classic tory tactics. Politicize the armed forces by attacking the govt for its handling of the war and then when Labour supporters fight back claim they are being political.

The tories have supposedly supported the Iraq war during the Blair govt. Although you would never have known it because they have constantly carped and criticized from their armchairs when they know full well that the whole thing was being run from Washington. but funnily enough they never critized the Republicans who where running the war (funny that?)

But as usual with the hypocrite tories, it is only ever the left that politicize anything. Of course the Right do it all the time but they just never admit it.

I could not sign up to serve in an organisation with the knowledge that part of my duty would be to go away and kill people in foreign lands to secure the strategic aims of the state.

I would go so far as to say that given the actual political situation, it is wrong to join the armed forces.

Yeah? And about double that would support the Green Party. So I’ll take their policies and ideas instead thanks.

I would estimate that the BNP will increase its % vote more than the Greens in the next general election. It is also probable that they will also increase it more than the LibDems. All from a lower base, but still relevant to Britain’s recapture of its 1970′s title as “the sick (and also poor) man of Europe”.

I am apolitical, but after living and working in 21 countries, I still love my country.
I also believe ALL the political parties are crap and by taking the best of Westminster we would still find it difficult to find a competent government.
But this government tops the slagheap. As in 1996 I believe any person who loves this country would want this government out.
Unfortunately the party system tends to support a totally blinkered percentage of the population to the party cause, who ignore their parties’ obvious (to thinking people) faults and incompetencies.

Fair enough, I agree – Labour may not be in such a mess if it wasn’t for them making decisions in the past on the basis of what would have gone down well with the Sun.

I’m not saying Brown is a good communicator at all. I’ve said repeatedly in the past that he’s terrible.

However I am saying the left and the Labour party need to drop the thinking that they need to get the likes of the Sun on side.

It’s amusing to see Guido Fawkes today desperately trying to push back against this and defend the Sun. What a twat.

http://order-order.com/2009/11/10/labour-looks-in-the-mirror-and-knows-it-has-lost/

Roy Mason was also very effective in N.Ireland . Martin McGuiness is quoted as saying “Mason kicked the f…… shit out of us”. Callaghan and D Owen was also highly respected by the military. The problem for Labour is that they have no MPs who were former NCOs who can bring some practical experience to the issues of conflict. The rapid turnover over of ministers cannot be helpful.

Part of the problem arises with the Tories post, 1992. Many experienced NCOs and officers left the military in the mid 90s. In the mid 90s, a Guards and Special forces officer told me he considerd that the Guards did not have sufficient ammunition to maintain adequate levels of marksmanship and he dreaded to think about the standards in the gunners and engineers; a major reason why he left the army.

There also apears to have been a complete loss of expertise by governments gained in 1979-89 in Afghanistan by the FCO, intelligence and special forces community. We only seem to be realising now part of the problem is the ethnic make up of Afghanistan.

Perhaps it is time that we expected the Secretaries of Defence and Foreign Affairs to remain in post for at least 4 years. Part of the problem is that the Labour cabinet does not include people with practical experience. If it included engineers with background in mining, construction or the oil industry they would appreciate the importance of obtaining the correct equipment. Equipment which may suitable in temperate climes would not necessarily be adequate for a desert in summer or an Artic winter. No company would tolerate waiting 3 years for a piece of equipment to get an oil field or mine fully operational. Look at the effort shown in the TV series ” Ice Road Truckers ” when they have to supply a mine in the Canadian Arctic.

Brown and his circle do not appreciate the technical problems in Afghanistan, do not listen to the people with the expertise and are incapable of making the decisions in the time required. As Wellington said after Waterloo, ” It was close run thing”. If Blucher had turned up a few hours later, Napoleon may have won.

Checked out the Ofsted Stories — I guess even social workers are against Brown’s government.

The idiotic nature of the loony left is killing the left in terms of achieving anything real.

Grow up – politics is about persuading and winning arguments. Left has done a lot in the past decade and a half on both sides of the Atlantic – so much so that we do not find it surprising when a Tory leader talks about compassion and society in a tory conference. But obviously loony left would not be persuaded unless the centre left is forced out of power do that the centre right can take over. What the hell is wrong with people?

Where did you see the open defiance from the armed forces except for Gen. Guthrie.

Bringing armed forces into politics is usually not a good idea and you seem to have no problems playing politics with it. So, is the party more important than the country and its responsibility towards the world?

But coherence and loony left usually live in two different worlds and its no exception on liberal conspiracy. This armed forces fought well without complaints under Blair and decent defence secretaries but they despise Brown and his acolytes and rightly so. But they serve his commands none the less.

How could anyone defend Brown and his handling of armed forces especially after the territorial army fiasco. And the defence secretary fell on his sword to save the GREAT LEADER who did not have the balls to challenge Blair for leadership or go and win a fucking election.

Sad aren’t you?

My point was that even The Sun wouldn’t be surprised to discover that one story by itself would probably prove insufficient to bring about Brown’s resignation – The Sun’s game is to chip away constantly at Brown until he’s out. Perhaps I should have rephrased my point “I’d be surprised if The Sun actually thought that this one story by itself would achieve it’s aims in campaigning against Brown”, simply because this will be one of many anti-Brown stories between now and the election. Happy?

As for ‘friend of the armed forces’, did I even suggest that The Sun was a genuine friend to the armed forces?

My point was that there is a widespread public perception that this govt has been a bit slow in providing for our armed forces. Look, you may not like it that many people, including non-Sun readers, think that, but if you don’t deal with that then you are just sticking your head in the sand.

“It is therefore very unwise for Labour Govts to send troops off to war unless really, really necessary because the international right wing always criticises the actions of left leaning govts at war”…er, I think the actual danger is sending troops off to war without adequately resourcing them. Not been watching the news?!

That the military would tend to be right wing is stating the bleeding obvious. But as for open defiance, you insinuate that the military make a habit of this with Labour govts – please tell give me an instance of when this last happened or are you just speaking solely in terms of the present Labour govt?!

My gawd, you must be a complete twat if you believe that.

And as for all this ‘friend of the armed forces’ bullshit, The Sun is the least of the friends of the armed forces because they are the biggest supporters of sending the troops off to die in the neo con colonial wars.

The truth is that the vast majority of the military are tories, particularly at officer level as been shown by all the old farts lining up to tell us how tory they all are, and how much they love Call me Dave., and they don’t like Labour Govts. It is therefore very unwise for Labour Govts to send troops off to war unless really, really necessary because the international right wing always criticises the actions of left leaning govts at war.

The Republicans never stopped attacking FDR during the second world war ,and they did the same during Vietnam, even negotiating behind The Dem presidents back with the then communist leaders urging them to not sign up to a deal because they would offer them a better one when Nixon was elected in 1968. If a Left wing opposition did this it would be called treason , but is ok as long as you are a Conservative.

The kind of open defiance we have seen from the military would never happen under a tory govt and any officer who did speak out would be castigated by the right wing press for doing so.

On your first point, which at least has some of the trappings of a point – GWB was popular among US troops for many years. This merely proves that, just as for people in general, soldiers aren’t necessarily perfect judges of who’s doing right by them and who’s screwing them over…