Oh that looks brilliant. Wish I’d gone.

Excellent

Maybe this demonstration in support of basically being fairly normal and reasonable will take off, spread and radicalise society. Maybe one day people everywhere will get the message and just kinda act like normal, reasonable people.

PS. Is it still OK to describe people as ‘normal’?

One of my kids came home with a certificate from school last year praising her “pleasant and cooperative attitude”. Apparently, this was because she spent an ‘entire’ term without screaming obscenities, abusing anybody and taking her coat off when asked. Do we really have to praise people for being reasonable? Can I have an award for going out last week without getting my stomach pumped, falling over, starting a fight and getting home without damaging property. FFS what is this about?

Kinda condemns lots of other Muslims by implication, non? You sure you’ve thought this through Mr H?

PPS

I was there ‘in spirit’ by just going about my usual business being kinda reasonable. Anyone fancy writing about me?

I notice that British Muslims for a Secular Democracy are in favour of the “separation of faith and state”. Would that separation, I wonder, include ending the iniquitous system whereby some of the taxes which everyone, including non-believers, has to pay go to cover the running costs of faith schools? Why should non-believers be required to subsidise the indoctrination of children with the tenets of beliefs which they may consider to be variously irrational, inegalitarian, homophobic or socially divisive?

I’m perfectly prepared to “respect” religions in the strictly limited sense of allowing that everyone is personally entitled to hold whatever beliefs they see fit, however absurd or even pernicious others may consider them to be. By the same token religious people, whether Christians, Muslims or others, should respect unbelief by refraining from expecting non-believers to subsidise schools which propagate religious ideas and practices.

domesticextremist:

Almost completely agree with you. But it is not so much indoctrination I worry about with faith schools. I had a Catholic education til I was sixteen and was always encouraged to question and debate “my” own religion.

It wasn’t any component of my education that was the problem – it was that it lacked exposure to people of any other culture or religion, even within Christianity. I got that from my Mum working in a very multicultural school closer to the city. We tended to break up a day or two earlier for the holidays, so I would go into work with her and make myself useful.

Faith schools helped maintain divisions in Northern Ireland for so long – not just through indoctrination, but through division and prevention of mixing of communities.

That’s why events like this are so good – the way to solve this is to mingle amongst each other and have a bit of a laugh. Then gradually more and more people will recognise that most people are pretty sound, and every culture and race has its own fair share of dickheads.

Sadly you won’t see this in most of the papers tomorrow.

I’m so cool,

Well, I’ll write about you.

You, and your kids, seem to me to be jolly good chaps, or chapesses. And I am fairly sure that:

I was there ‘in spirit’ by just going about my usual business being kinda reasonable.

Is more or less what I do every day too.

Welcome to Liberal Conspiracy, where that sort of sense is not exactly the common currency.

domesticextremist,

I agree with you too.

By the same token religious people, whether Christians, Muslims or others, should respect unbelief by refraining from expecting non-believers to subsidise schools which propagate religious ideas and practices.

But I agree more with Phil H:

That’s why events like this are so good – the way to solve this is to mingle amongst each other and have a bit of a laugh. Then gradually more and more people will recognise that most people are pretty sound, and every culture and race has its own fair share of dickheads.

Sadly you won’t see this in most of the papers tomorrow.

It seems to me that some atheists – like the folk at Pharyngula for instance – are, not, well, very tolerant. In fact, I find them just as annoying as a Witchfinder General, or Eugene McCarthy.

And they have no sense of humour whatsoever.

Atheists, of which I am one, have their own dickheads. Recognising your own dickheads is perhaps a way forward?

“Why should non-believers be required to subsidise the indoctrination of children with the tenets of beliefs which they may consider to be variously irrational, inegalitarian, homophobic or socially divisive?”

Can’t say my experience of faith schools was like that. Went to two 2 C of E schools as did many of my friends and most of us probably came out as “weak” C of E or atheists. I’ve always wondered where this idea of fostering religious fanaticism comes from. That may have been the case in schools in Northern Ireland but in England there doesn’t seem to be much evidence of it.

As for non-believers subsidising “indoctrination”, many believers pay taxes – why should their taxes be forced to fund secular education or rather, why should they not be allowed to fund religious education? Indeed, seeing as church schools are supposedly a bastion of the middle classes, chances are the parents who send their children there are fully funding the schools through their taxes.

Richard: By “secular education” I would understand schools which inform children about the existence of a variety of religious beliefs, and about scepticism regarding the claims of religion, but make no attempt to throw their authority behind one particular set of such beliefs or behind unbelief. In a society like ours where a wide variety of incompatible positions are taken on matters of faith and non-faith, offering children a secular education in the terms sketched above seems to me the most reasonable (and socially cohesive) approach, and the most liberal as it leaves individuals free to make up their own minds at the appropriate stage about what religious claims, if any, are valid.

I therefore reject the idea that a secular education, properly understood, is on all fours with an education which deliberately sets out to promote a particular religious faith, and that the former and the latter equally deserve support from the taxes we all have to pay.

It’s also worth remembering that there are no such things as Christian children or Muslim children. There are only children, some of whom have parents who wish them to be influenced at an impressionable age by beliefs and practices they lack the knowledge or experience to question. Clearly such parents cannot be denied that power, but if they insist on doing so they should certainly do so at their own expense.

That doesn’t address my point, though, Richard. By physically separating children along religious or racial lines, you pass divisions in society onto the next generation. Faith schools may not actively promote bigotry, but they allow myths and prejudices to survive by preventing children from encountering and understanding other cultures.

Phil H,
I couldn’t agree more. Faith schools pose the risk of actively encouraging segregation from day one.