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	<title>Comments on: What might a 21st century Libel Law look like?</title>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69349</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69349</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How do you frame the protection of scientific debate points?&lt;i&gt;

With a two part test.

In the first instance scientific debate is unequivocally in the public interest and, as such, if its established that the allegedly defamatory speech forms part of such a debate then the plaintiff will have to demonstrate evidence of malice in order to mount a case.

In the second instance, a test broadly similar to that of the Reynolds defence would be made available to defendants which, if successfully argued, would afford them the protection of qualified privilege.

As for what that test might look like, some elements that would be part of the test, as I see it, would be derived from the Daubert Standard, which is discussed here - http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2009/10/15/simon-singh-and-the-daubert-standard/ - in the context of its potential relevance to Simon Singh&#039;s case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How do you frame the protection of scientific debate points?</i><i></p>
<p>With a two part test.</p>
<p>In the first instance scientific debate is unequivocally in the public interest and, as such, if its established that the allegedly defamatory speech forms part of such a debate then the plaintiff will have to demonstrate evidence of malice in order to mount a case.</p>
<p>In the second instance, a test broadly similar to that of the Reynolds defence would be made available to defendants which, if successfully argued, would afford them the protection of qualified privilege.</p>
<p>As for what that test might look like, some elements that would be part of the test, as I see it, would be derived from the Daubert Standard, which is discussed here &#8211; <a href="http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2009/10/15/simon-singh-and-the-daubert-standard/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2009/10/15/simon-singh-and-the-daubert-standard/</a> &#8211; in the context of its potential relevance to Simon Singh&#8217;s case.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69346</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69346</guid>
		<description>Dan:

I think you misunderstand the point about &#039;bubble bursting&#039;, which is fair enough as its a pretty technical point.

To clarify, the Reynolds defence is effectively a claim of qualified privilege based on a ten point test set out by Lord Nicholls in the House of Lords ruling in Reynolds vs Times Newspapers Ltd.

The bubble bursting principle applies to the trial process and to the establishment of fact relevant to the case, so...

If a newspaper is sued for libel buts seeks to deploy the Reynolds defence then, at either trial or, more commonly, at a preliminary hearing, the newspaper will present evidence to the court in an effort to establish, as a matter of fact, that it complied with each of the ten points of the test and is, therefore, entitled to qualified privilege.

Once the evidence is presented, the plaintiff is afforded the opportunity to provide their own evidence in rebuttal of the evidence provided by the newspaper.

If the newspaper successfully establishes that complied with the ten point of the test, then it is a matter of fact that they published under qualified privilege. If, however, it fails on any point of the test then the bubble burst and that defence is not open to them.

The bubble bursting principle is not alternative to the Reynolds defence, which should actually be strengthened by incorporating it into statute, its merely part of the process by which the defence is established, or not, according to the facts of the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan:</p>
<p>I think you misunderstand the point about &#8216;bubble bursting&#8217;, which is fair enough as its a pretty technical point.</p>
<p>To clarify, the Reynolds defence is effectively a claim of qualified privilege based on a ten point test set out by Lord Nicholls in the House of Lords ruling in Reynolds vs Times Newspapers Ltd.</p>
<p>The bubble bursting principle applies to the trial process and to the establishment of fact relevant to the case, so&#8230;</p>
<p>If a newspaper is sued for libel buts seeks to deploy the Reynolds defence then, at either trial or, more commonly, at a preliminary hearing, the newspaper will present evidence to the court in an effort to establish, as a matter of fact, that it complied with each of the ten points of the test and is, therefore, entitled to qualified privilege.</p>
<p>Once the evidence is presented, the plaintiff is afforded the opportunity to provide their own evidence in rebuttal of the evidence provided by the newspaper.</p>
<p>If the newspaper successfully establishes that complied with the ten point of the test, then it is a matter of fact that they published under qualified privilege. If, however, it fails on any point of the test then the bubble burst and that defence is not open to them.</p>
<p>The bubble bursting principle is not alternative to the Reynolds defence, which should actually be strengthened by incorporating it into statute, its merely part of the process by which the defence is established, or not, according to the facts of the case.</p>
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		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69315</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69315</guid>
		<description>Matt Wardman,

If the legal profession can invent super injunctions, it cannot be beyond the wit of man to develop super protections.

I have to be careful here, but attacking the British Woo Society and saying they are full of shit, should not, it seems to me to be legitimately actionable unless you take the truly oddly entrenched legalistic view that a group is an individual, with rights, etc.

Attacking an individual member of the British Woo Society and saying that Mr X is full of shit should be subject to individual action and be open to defences of &#039;fair comment&#039; and ECHR Article 10. &#039;Course Mr X might be right and this would come out in a judgement....

Mr Singh seems to me to have run up against this idea that an abstract is a real person.

And, frankly a Court of Law nor, dare I say it, a web site, is anywhere worth trying to resolve scientific debates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt Wardman,</p>
<p>If the legal profession can invent super injunctions, it cannot be beyond the wit of man to develop super protections.</p>
<p>I have to be careful here, but attacking the British Woo Society and saying they are full of shit, should not, it seems to me to be legitimately actionable unless you take the truly oddly entrenched legalistic view that a group is an individual, with rights, etc.</p>
<p>Attacking an individual member of the British Woo Society and saying that Mr X is full of shit should be subject to individual action and be open to defences of &#8216;fair comment&#8217; and ECHR Article 10. &#8216;Course Mr X might be right and this would come out in a judgement&#8230;.</p>
<p>Mr Singh seems to me to have run up against this idea that an abstract is a real person.</p>
<p>And, frankly a Court of Law nor, dare I say it, a web site, is anywhere worth trying to resolve scientific debates.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Wardman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69310</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Wardman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69310</guid>
		<description>How do you frame the protection of scientific debate points?

Bearing in mind the Singh case (i.e., pseudo-science), but also that established &quot;scientific&quot; theories have been simply wrong, and that derided theories have been right (e.g., Plate Tectonics).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you frame the protection of scientific debate points?</p>
<p>Bearing in mind the Singh case (i.e., pseudo-science), but also that established &#8220;scientific&#8221; theories have been simply wrong, and that derided theories have been right (e.g., Plate Tectonics).</p>
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		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69302</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69302</guid>
		<description>Unity,

Excellent article.

Ré your comment at 25. Would you see a small claims tribual as the starting point for all libel actions, with no exceptions? For that would be useful in trivialising the imbalance that the powerful appear to have, without necessarily denying remedy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unity,</p>
<p>Excellent article.</p>
<p>Ré your comment at 25. Would you see a small claims tribual as the starting point for all libel actions, with no exceptions? For that would be useful in trivialising the imbalance that the powerful appear to have, without necessarily denying remedy.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Hardie</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69300</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Hardie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69300</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t like the &#039;bubble bursting&#039; principle at all. I&#039;d support a stronger basis in law for the &#039;Reynolds defence&#039;: roughly speaking, that writers or publishers aren&#039;t guilty of libel if they made a rigorous attempt to investigate a matter, including putting any defamatory accusations to the person or persons involved and asking for their response, and came to a reasonable conclusion on the basis of all the available evidence.

As things stand, the Reynolds defence has been accepted as a possible defence against libel by the Court of Appeal- which helpfully even spelled out the steps a publication would have to take to successfully use such a defence. Unsurprisingly, the British courts have yet to accept that any publication has actually published a story covered by the Reynolds defence, so the protection it offers is theoretical rather than real. 

&#039;Bubble bursting&#039; would mean that a (well-funded) newspaper could print unpleasant allegations against someone with less resources, and the defamed person would then face having to prove a negative in an expensive court action. A &#039;Reynolds defence&#039; would commit the newspaper to thoroughly investigating the allegations first, including privately asking the person accused what they had to say: not perfect, but much more likely to protect the rights both of publishers and of genuinely libelled people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t like the &#8216;bubble bursting&#8217; principle at all. I&#8217;d support a stronger basis in law for the &#8216;Reynolds defence&#8217;: roughly speaking, that writers or publishers aren&#8217;t guilty of libel if they made a rigorous attempt to investigate a matter, including putting any defamatory accusations to the person or persons involved and asking for their response, and came to a reasonable conclusion on the basis of all the available evidence.</p>
<p>As things stand, the Reynolds defence has been accepted as a possible defence against libel by the Court of Appeal- which helpfully even spelled out the steps a publication would have to take to successfully use such a defence. Unsurprisingly, the British courts have yet to accept that any publication has actually published a story covered by the Reynolds defence, so the protection it offers is theoretical rather than real. </p>
<p>&#8216;Bubble bursting&#8217; would mean that a (well-funded) newspaper could print unpleasant allegations against someone with less resources, and the defamed person would then face having to prove a negative in an expensive court action. A &#8216;Reynolds defence&#8217; would commit the newspaper to thoroughly investigating the allegations first, including privately asking the person accused what they had to say: not perfect, but much more likely to protect the rights both of publishers and of genuinely libelled people.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Gadsden</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69293</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Gadsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69293</guid>
		<description>I think the better response to sleb nonsense is to professionalise journalism; if the sleb could appeal to a General Jounalism Council to get the journo struck off for printing a story they hadn&#039;t done any checking on then that would deal with the low standards of slbe stories without having any effect on serious journalism.

Struck-off journalists would still be able to publish whatever they wanted, just (probably) not in a newspaper.  Make journalist a protected title (like doctor or engineer) while you&#039;re at it,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the better response to sleb nonsense is to professionalise journalism; if the sleb could appeal to a General Jounalism Council to get the journo struck off for printing a story they hadn&#8217;t done any checking on then that would deal with the low standards of slbe stories without having any effect on serious journalism.</p>
<p>Struck-off journalists would still be able to publish whatever they wanted, just (probably) not in a newspaper.  Make journalist a protected title (like doctor or engineer) while you&#8217;re at it,</p>
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		<title>By: JasonG</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-75308</link>
		<dc:creator>JasonG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? http://bit.ly/3NI6wp&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/getwebspace/status/4877824222&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? <a href="http://bit.ly/3NI6wp" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/3NI6wp</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/getwebspace/status/4877824222">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: Chad Van Norman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-75309</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Van Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-75309</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? http://bit.ly/lLvGY
 By: http://www.GoGVOCom.com&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/gogvocom/status/4877341837&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? <a href="http://bit.ly/lLvGY" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/lLvGY</a><br />
 By: <a href="http://www.GoGVOCom.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.GoGVOCom.com</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/gogvocom/status/4877341837">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: Brroha</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-75310</link>
		<dc:creator>Brroha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-75310</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like?: Under English libel law, at present, web h.. http://bit.ly/1CZqRj&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/brh_host/status/4877319337&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like?: Under English libel law, at present, web h.. <a href="http://bit.ly/1CZqRj" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/1CZqRj</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/brh_host/status/4877319337">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: Shatterface</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69197</link>
		<dc:creator>Shatterface</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69197</guid>
		<description>Good news for Simon Singh, anyway: Judge Eady&#039;s preliminary ruling against him has been overturned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good news for Simon Singh, anyway: Judge Eady&#8217;s preliminary ruling against him has been overturned.</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69179</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mmm... well yes, the cost issue is an important but slightly separate area which is ripe for reform, and pegging cost awards to legal aid rates is a damn good starting point to work from.

On the costs front, I think there&#039;s also scope for exploring the idea of a small claims tribunal and an arbitration scheme, both of which would prove attractive to local/regional newspapers where the costs of a basic high court action are typically out of all proportion to the damages sought.

And, actually, we might have fewer libel actions against newspapers if the PCC weren&#039;t such a bunch of ineffective tosspots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mmm&#8230; well yes, the cost issue is an important but slightly separate area which is ripe for reform, and pegging cost awards to legal aid rates is a damn good starting point to work from.</p>
<p>On the costs front, I think there&#8217;s also scope for exploring the idea of a small claims tribunal and an arbitration scheme, both of which would prove attractive to local/regional newspapers where the costs of a basic high court action are typically out of all proportion to the damages sought.</p>
<p>And, actually, we might have fewer libel actions against newspapers if the PCC weren&#8217;t such a bunch of ineffective tosspots.</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69178</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69178</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/10/15/libel-law-reform/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;My thoughts&lt;/a&gt;. In short: capping all costs awards at legal aid rates would be a bloody good start (and indeed, not just in libel law: it&#039;d be a very nice, drawback-free piece of tort law reform).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/10/15/libel-law-reform/" rel="nofollow">My thoughts</a>. In short: capping all costs awards at legal aid rates would be a bloody good start (and indeed, not just in libel law: it&#8217;d be a very nice, drawback-free piece of tort law reform).</p>
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		<title>By: Pablo Montalvo</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-75307</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo Montalvo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-75307</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? http://bit.ly/4FGj32&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/resourcesotw/status/4882339005&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? <a href="http://bit.ly/4FGj32" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/4FGj32</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/resourcesotw/status/4882339005">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: JasonG</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-76554</link>
		<dc:creator>JasonG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-76554</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? http://bit.ly/3NI6wp&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/getwebspace/status/4877824222&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? <a href="http://bit.ly/3NI6wp" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/3NI6wp</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/getwebspace/status/4877824222">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: Chad Van Norman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-76905</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Van Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-76905</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? http://bit.ly/lLvGY
 By: http://www.GoGVOCom.com&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/gogvocom/status/4877341837&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? <a href="http://bit.ly/lLvGY" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/lLvGY</a><br />
 By: <a href="http://www.GoGVOCom.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.GoGVOCom.com</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/gogvocom/status/4877341837">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: Brroha</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-77690</link>
		<dc:creator>Brroha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-77690</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like?: Under English libel law, at present, web h.. http://bit.ly/1CZqRj&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/brh_host/status/4877319337&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like?: Under English libel law, at present, web h.. <a href="http://bit.ly/1CZqRj" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/1CZqRj</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/brh_host/status/4877319337">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: Bryan Chalmers</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69150</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Chalmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69150</guid>
		<description>One other item that needs to be reformed is the cost of defending an action.

Currently, people are bullied by the ridiculously high costs that are involved and will cave in to this pressure even if they have a good case to present.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other item that needs to be reformed is the cost of defending an action.</p>
<p>Currently, people are bullied by the ridiculously high costs that are involved and will cave in to this pressure even if they have a good case to present.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69137</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Liberal Conspiracy » What might a 21st century Libel Law look like? -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69137</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Sunder Katwala, kobbie. kobbie said: RT @politicsofuk British libel laws are a mess. So, what might a 21st century libel law look like? #ukpolitics http://bit.ly/16DmsW [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Sunder Katwala, kobbie. kobbie said: RT @politicsofuk British libel laws are a mess. So, what might a 21st century libel law look like? #ukpolitics <a href="http://bit.ly/16DmsW" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/16DmsW</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kobbie</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-75311</link>
		<dc:creator>kobbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-75311</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;RT @politicsofuk British libel laws are a mess. So, what might a 21st century libel law look like? #ukpolitics http://bit.ly/16DmsW&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/djkobbie/status/4864907750&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">RT @politicsofuk British libel laws are a mess. So, what might a 21st century libel law look like? #ukpolitics <a href="http://bit.ly/16DmsW" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/16DmsW</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/djkobbie/status/4864907750">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: sanbikinoraion</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69136</link>
		<dc:creator>sanbikinoraion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69136</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Of course – the purpose of defamation law is not to regulate private conduct and, as such, private conversations would continues to be treated as privileged and not actionable.&lt;/i&gt;

Depends on the &#039;private conversation&#039;, doesn&#039;t it? Private conversations by email are still considered &#039;publishing&#039; from the point of view of libel, which seems like another problem with current libel law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Of course – the purpose of defamation law is not to regulate private conduct and, as such, private conversations would continues to be treated as privileged and not actionable.</i></p>
<p>Depends on the &#8216;private conversation&#8217;, doesn&#8217;t it? Private conversations by email are still considered &#8216;publishing&#8217; from the point of view of libel, which seems like another problem with current libel law.</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; &#8216;english celebrities&#8217; on the web Kates Objective Opinion</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69134</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; &#8216;english celebrities&#8217; on the web Kates Objective Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69134</guid>
		<description>[...] http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/&#8230; a publisher (in English law, malice is only a factor in determining damages) and this has created a gaping loophole in their defamation law in which an entire industry based on spreading made-up celebrity &#8216;gossip&#8217; has flourished. &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/&#038;#8230" rel="nofollow">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/&#038;#8230</a>; a publisher (in English law, malice is only a factor in determining damages) and this has created a gaping loophole in their defamation law in which an entire industry based on spreading made-up celebrity &#8216;gossip&#8217; has flourished. &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sunder Katwala</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-75312</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunder Katwala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-75312</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;engaged  #CarterRuck libel reform/what next responses @libcon in threads  http://tinyurl.com/yhtgunk and http://tiny.cc/ZNLfp&lt;/span&gt;
&lt;div class=&quot;topsy_trackback_links&quot;&gt;[&lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/nextleft/status/4864537893&quot;&gt;Original tweet&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">engaged  #CarterRuck libel reform/what next responses @libcon in threads  <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yhtgunk" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yhtgunk</a> and <a href="http://tiny.cc/ZNLfp" rel="nofollow">http://tiny.cc/ZNLfp</a></span></p>
<div class="topsy_trackback_links">[<a href="http://twitter.com/nextleft/status/4864537893">Original tweet</a>]</div>
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		<title>By: Shatterface</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69133</link>
		<dc:creator>Shatterface</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69133</guid>
		<description>&#039;It does not strike me as particularly unreasonable that if you make defamatory statements about somebody that you should have to demonstrate their truth.&#039;

Or at least that there is sufficient evidence that a reasonable person could have believe there is a case to answer, but this brings us a long way from &#039;proof&#039; in a legal sense because &#039;sufficient evidence&#039;, &#039;reasonable person&#039; and &#039;case to answer&#039; are so vague there will never be an agreement on what they mean.

Personally I find celebrity gossip vaguely repellant but that&#039;s just personal distaste, not principle; on this, and a preference for real ale, I&#039;m a snob. I&#039;m not sure it should be a matter for the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;It does not strike me as particularly unreasonable that if you make defamatory statements about somebody that you should have to demonstrate their truth.&#8217;</p>
<p>Or at least that there is sufficient evidence that a reasonable person could have believe there is a case to answer, but this brings us a long way from &#8216;proof&#8217; in a legal sense because &#8216;sufficient evidence&#8217;, &#8216;reasonable person&#8217; and &#8216;case to answer&#8217; are so vague there will never be an agreement on what they mean.</p>
<p>Personally I find celebrity gossip vaguely repellant but that&#8217;s just personal distaste, not principle; on this, and a preference for real ale, I&#8217;m a snob. I&#8217;m not sure it should be a matter for the state.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunder Katwala</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/14/what-might-a-21st-century-libel-law-look-like/#comment-69132</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunder Katwala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=8285#comment-69132</guid>
		<description>Thanks. I look forward to digesting it properly.

I think the post helps to clarify that we could do with.
- Broad principles/objectives of reform which might command consensus
- Specific proposals (such as these) which meet these by particular responses to problems in the current system

There is no doubt that the issues will be contested, including some regressive moves. (Newsnight last night included a lawyer questioning Parliamentary privilege as a response to yesterday&#039;s events!)

One part of that challenge is that the internet discussion will (compared to say mainstream media; legal; parliamentary) tend to be
- broader
- more libertarian
- more internet-focused (which is a good idea; there are emerging problems).

I think we lack forums for the type of political negotiation between types of perspective, which might help to prioritise and establish key messages about what should change much more concretely than is now the case.

My thought is that if more people tried to do what you have done here and put up &quot;three changes I would like to see&quot; we could try to develop a sense of how far liberal ngo, media, legal, political and blogosphere voices might agree on some points of consensus about reform/campaigning priorities, even while not agreeing on everything, and indeed agree on strategic/tactical/process points about how to pursue reform in practice.

I could imagine the Liberal Democrats in particular becoming one good site of engaged debate about tensions and trade-offs, where some of the liberal/libertarian and more &#039;establishment&#039; liberal political/legal voices might engage over the details, though I acknowledge there are lots of centre-right and libertarian voices involved in this too.

And I would like to see some of us in the Labour Party get our party on the right side of a major civil liberties issue too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. I look forward to digesting it properly.</p>
<p>I think the post helps to clarify that we could do with.<br />
- Broad principles/objectives of reform which might command consensus<br />
- Specific proposals (such as these) which meet these by particular responses to problems in the current system</p>
<p>There is no doubt that the issues will be contested, including some regressive moves. (Newsnight last night included a lawyer questioning Parliamentary privilege as a response to yesterday&#8217;s events!)</p>
<p>One part of that challenge is that the internet discussion will (compared to say mainstream media; legal; parliamentary) tend to be<br />
- broader<br />
- more libertarian<br />
- more internet-focused (which is a good idea; there are emerging problems).</p>
<p>I think we lack forums for the type of political negotiation between types of perspective, which might help to prioritise and establish key messages about what should change much more concretely than is now the case.</p>
<p>My thought is that if more people tried to do what you have done here and put up &#8220;three changes I would like to see&#8221; we could try to develop a sense of how far liberal ngo, media, legal, political and blogosphere voices might agree on some points of consensus about reform/campaigning priorities, even while not agreeing on everything, and indeed agree on strategic/tactical/process points about how to pursue reform in practice.</p>
<p>I could imagine the Liberal Democrats in particular becoming one good site of engaged debate about tensions and trade-offs, where some of the liberal/libertarian and more &#8216;establishment&#8217; liberal political/legal voices might engage over the details, though I acknowledge there are lots of centre-right and libertarian voices involved in this too.</p>
<p>And I would like to see some of us in the Labour Party get our party on the right side of a major civil liberties issue too!</p>
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