I could put them all up here as I have done in other US healthcare threads but no point, your views are based on facts, they are based on prejudice and lies.

Otherwise why else would you have a problem with a healthcare reform that helps more people than the current terrible system.

Obama has had plenty of opportunity to set the record “straight” about what he wants to accomplish — and none of it sticks for many reasons — including the truth! It’s not selling ’cause people smell a rat. A rat that’s coming on the heels of an historic, gargantuan gov’t spending spree ($787 billion +++).

Also remember, he WANTED to pass all this WITHOUT ANY debate at all. Now we are seeing why!

Are YOU in favor of “single payer” (ALL gov’t controlled)?
If so, it is you who is the radical here (from the US people’s perspective) — no one (*%-wise*) wants THAT here — there’s no debate about that.

Death panels operate now TW, although the name is crude and idiotic, the GIOP myth on what they will be under the Obama healthcare plan is just that. A myth.

The American people, or at least those that are falling for these lies, get the crappy healthcare they deserve, why anyone who any decency would oppose a plan that will help so many people is beyond me but that is America for you.

Obama’s chief advisor on health care is Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel (brother of his chief of staff, Rahm). Here’s his philosophy on health care (+ how to control costs)…

an article in the radical publication “The Wall Street Journal” (yes, I realize it’s on the opinion page)…

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203706604574374463280098676.html

This is just one of the reasons Americans are speaking out (angrily) against Obama care.

Again, this is not how America “rolls” … even if it “should,” according to people who “know better” (like you?)

Again DHG… did you view the video clip? what lies am I believing about Obama care? — specifically.

You’re an idiot because you’ve swallowed lies about the Obama healthcare plan.

Hope that’s clearer for you.

1) Is that because I just-plain don’t know what’s good for me? In other words, I’m an idiot because I don’t want an eventual total gov’t takeover of health care (”universal health”)?

2) Or is it because I’m believing in some kind of myth(s) about the bills under consideration?

If it’s #1, then I’m in good company because the polls are slipping sharply re: Obama care. And, as you know, The People (supposedly) still run the country over here. The senators, etc. are public servants. he people decide what happens, even if they “just-plain don’t know what’s good for them.” Are you suggesting that’s a bad arrangement?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/20/AR2009082004305.html

And today…
http://www.examiner.com/x-20271-Fresno-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m8d27-New-poll-less-support-Obamas-healthcare-plan-now-than-Clintons-1994-plan

If it’s #2, please tell us what are the myths I am operating under? — specifically.

No matter what the debate over health care here, one thing is CERTAIN — almost NO ONE (***%-wise***) is in favor of “single payer” (NO options, all-gov’t run) Yet, that is exactly what Obama IS in favor of (as are many of his cohorts)… eventually.

Click here… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk

He can’t pass the bill because if he makes it too gov’t heavy, moderate democrats won’t vote for it (because they will LOSE their jobs in 2010 if they vote for it — see all the Town Hall meetings w/angry voters!). If he makes the bill NOT gov’t heavy ENOUGH, the liberal loon wing of the democrats won’t vote for it because it doesn’t go far enough.

I don’t think people are consciously thinking this way. But I do think it’s at work.

Daniel – It’s a different political culture over there. The language is more extreme and the rhetoric tends to hyperbole, to be sure, but the basic worries usually tend to have some basis in reality. I still don’t know where, in this case, though – that’s what I’m trying to find out.

They are fighting a fictional war.

This is a thinly-veiled one-way (ratcheted) path to total gov’t control. The people are wise to the ruse, and that’s why the polls are showing dwindling support for it. “We’re from the gov’t — and we’re here to help you.” That’s an immediate red flag.

In an insurance-based system those who can afford insurance may have the ability to opt out, for sure – but those who *can’t* afford insurance don’t have the ability to opt in.

In my books, that means *less* choice, not more.

As for the founding principles of the United States, how about “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”? The first of these is life, not liberty – for without life, how can you have liberty?

The details of Obama’s healthcare plans may well have their faults, but the basic version is that he’s trying to enable greater access to life-extending healthcare to his fellow Americans. That sounds entirely within the spirit of the founding fathers to me – your take on it, by comparison, is more reminiscent of the aristocratic/oligarchic world view that the American Revolutionaries rose to shake off.

The cure is the disease.

Just look at the biz’s + industries the gov’t has “bailed out” — and what happens to them afterwards (become gov’t controlled). If you read the health care bills proposed, you see the underlying effect (goal?) is to control the people — in an irreversible way. In America, that’s just not how we “roll.”

USA => excellent health coverage *for those that can afford it* (at a very high cost per capita)

UK => adequate health coverage *for everyone* (at a much lower cost per capita, and with the option to pay more for better-quality private treatment for those that want it)

In my books, that still makes the UK far more efficient. See also the life expectancy and child mortality points above – the US healthcare system is one of the few in the developed world that the NHS can beat hands down in most areas. Cost and coverage, however, remain the most important indicators of its efficiency as far as I’m concerned.

Ahem.

Only if the outcomes are the same.

Which clearly they are not. I have experience of the US free market system (maybe you have too?) and believe me it is fantastically good. Expensive, as you’ve pointed out quite rightly, but there is no comparison in the quality and timeliness of the service you get. No comparison whatever.

“So what?”

Well considering that is the point of this thread…just a thought.

So what? For decades – to my personal knowledge – the Labour Party and its supporters have been trading on the (totally irrelevant, if true) claim that the NHS is a better deal than the American system of healthcare.

That claim has made us all complacent about the NHS – as it was probably intended to – when the NHS is sorely in need of reform to bring it up to the performance standards of healthcare systems in other west European countries, which is surely what matters more to NHS patients.

The distinctive characteristic of the NHS is that it combines a system of universal social insurance for healthcare costs with a verging-on state monopoly in the provision of centrally managed healthcare services. Other west European countries have avoided that combination and have focused instead on social insurance schemes without the state monopolies. On the evidence, that latter structure has yielded better healthcare performance according to independent assessments, the comparison which matters.

For illuminating comparisons of the relative performance of the NHS from a perspective of 2000 – the beginning of the big spending spluge on the NHS – try this:
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_PQTNND

We are surely entitled to ask whether the extra spending has rectified the NHS deficits in 5 year cancer survivial rates and the numbers of physicians per head of population. We might also research on the important question of why the NHS developed those performance deficits compared with healthcare systems in other large west European countries.

The US government spends more tax money per head than the UK does but it gets a lot less for it.

A growing # of Americans are wondering why Obama wants to overhaul the entire system instead of just fixing what’s wrong with it. The answer many are coming up with is: Power Grab.

The polls are slipping on the whole issue because many are seeing that Obama is just-plain lying about what is in the bill(s) — and they can see that he wants to use this as a stepping stone to (eventually — sooner, not later) end up with the gov’t completely taking over ALL health care. The slippery slope we Americans commonly call, “boiling the frog.” See for yourself — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk

(flat out lies such as (but not limited to) “you’ll be able to keep the health insurance you have now.” and “I welcome healthy debate on this issue” when everyone knows he wanted to RAM this through before the August recess, WITHOUT any debate on it at all.)

America was formed SPECIFICALLY to make sure gov’t stays SMALL. That is the very definition of America — literally + figuratively. When things start slipping towards the nanny state end of the spectrum, people wake up + start fighting it. Thank goodness.