The BNP’s lies in Norwich North


9:20 am - July 22nd 2009

by Cath Elliott    


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Much to my joy I received my first Norwich North by-election leaflets from the BNP yesterday. The first one was pretty much as I expected:
scan0002

I think its the same layout as the one they used for the Euro elections a couple of months ago: it’s got the Battle of Britain spitfire picture which caused some hilarity last time round when it was revealed to be a Polish (in BNP speak: dirty-foreigner-Eastern-Europeans-coming-over-here-and-taking-all-our-jobs) squadron plane, and it’s got four numpties, I mean ordinary British working people, trying to make excuses for their decision to embrace fascism.

“I’m voting BNP because I’m sick of immigration. Asylum seekers come here and get everything handed to them on a plate whilst hard working local people struggle with a recession and rising unemployment”

spouts a woman who has obviously never had the misfortune of trying to negotiate her way through our barbaric asylum system, while an old soldier who claims to have fought against the Nazis in WWII fails to be struck by the irony of his appearance in a British Nazi Party propaganda sheet.

But it was the second leaflet that really caught my eye:

scan0001

More specifically, it was that little yellow box at the top right-hand side that made me sit bolt upright and yell “You lying fascist scum!” at the top of my lungs.

Here it is again, this time in close-up:

Lies

Okay. For the record, I had some peripheral involvement with the Gateway Protection Programme that the BNP is trying to discredit here. For a couple of years I represented Norfolk Library and Information Service on the multi-agency Norwich Asylum Seeker and Refugee Forum (NASREF), and I was a member of it when the decision was taken to sign Norwich up to the Gateway Programme: I also had the pleasure of meeting the first tranche of refugees and showing them around the City library as part of their initial orientation programme. In other words, I know a bit about this issue, unlike whichever BNP hatemonger came up with the mendacious piece of crap above.

And I can quite categorically state that no local people lost out on housing to the Congolese refugees who settled here in December 2006/January 2007 and in January 2008, because in order to prevent exactly the kind of resentment that the BNP leaflet is trying to stir up, a decision was taken right at the very start of the process to house the families through private accommodation rather than through the City Council’s housing stock.

Furthermore, the Gateway Protection Programme was funded in its entirety by the Home Office, so no local resources were spent on housing and supporting the refugees either on their arrival, or during their first year here. The expectation was that after that first year the refugees would be fully integrated into their local schools and communities, and that the adults would be in employment and thus able to provide for themselves. Support was also provided by the Red Cross and by the Refugee Council.

Contrary to the assertion in the BNP’s first paragraph that housing priority was given to “African Asylum seekers” the refugees were housed through private sector leased homes. As one of the initial proposals read:

“The emphasis on private sector homes is due to the fact that Norwich is a very high demand area for social housing and we want to avoid any perception of new arrivals taking resources away from people who are in need in the local area.”

So to reiterate, no council-allocated accommodation went to the Gateway refugees, and no local people were pushed to the back of any housing queue as a result of either Norwich City Council or Broadland Council signing up to the Gateway Protection Programme.

As for the constant references to the Gateway Programme refugees being asylum seekers, we’re talking here about people who had fled the fighting in the Congo, who were living in refugee camps in Zaire (and in some cases who had been in those camps for as long as 10 years), and who had been accepted as refugees by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) while they were still in the camps: in other words prior to their arrival in Britain. They did not come here seeking asylum, because they’d already been granted it: it had already been acknowledged that they were unable to return to their own country of origin or settle in the country where they living at the time their refugee status was approved.

As one of the refugees has said:

“We have witnessed many heinous atrocities. Because of this most of us left our homes and took refuge in Zambia and other neighbouring countries. We were in refugee camps for about 9 years and we made camps ourselves by changing a forest into a village by the help of UNHCR.

Thankfully to the UNHCR and the UK government we were selected and given the opportunity to come over here. We are welcomed by the UK government and the people of Norwich. We are grateful for the hospitality we have been receiving. We are grateful for all the agencies that have been helping us to resettle in this community. Thank you very much for everything you did for us. We are now in a safe haven because of everyone’s contribution.”

And he’s right. The Congolese refugees who settled here through the Gateway Protection Programme are now in a safe haven and have been welcomed with open arms by the people of Norwich. As always, the BNP is simply intent on stirring up hate and resentment where none exists.

Thankfully I’m fairly sure that this Thursday, July 23rd, when the constituents of Norwich North go to the polls the BNP will get the message loud and clear, just as they did in the Euro elections: if anyone’s not welcome here it’s them. Because if local people are sick of anyone, it’s of those who want to come into our communities and spread hate; it’s of those who have nothing to offer but cynicism and lies.

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About the author
Cath Elliott is a regular contributor. She is a feminist, a trade union activist, and a freelance writer and blogger. Also at: Guardian CIF.
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Story Filed Under: Blog ,Local Government ,Race relations ,Westminster

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Reader comments


1. Edwin Moore

Excellent piece Cath thanks

It’s such a sad reality of politics that whilst Cath is completely right, it takes time and a little concentration for her to explain why the BNP are full of crap. This is sad because the BNP will capitalise on the laziness and short-attention spans of many voters, who will not wait to have the proper explanation given to them by the likes of Cath and will instead plumb for BNP easy answers.

Nonetheless, good work Cath and keep it up.

Chap on the bottom left of the 4 is David Owens who I think is a BNP councillor on Boston District Council in Lincolnshire so he’s unlikely to be voting BNP in Norwich.

It’s okay, the voters probably don’t exist anyway, http://www.newspeak.org.uk/2009/05/13/british-national-party-voters-dont-exist/

Shouldn’t this be legally challenged? As far as I can see everything in the little yellow box of hate is untrue.

If they want to drone on about “comin’ over here takin’ our stuffs”, they have every right to do so on the basis that it’s nothing more than (misguided) opinion, but the line has to be drawn when they’re lying in campaign material to deliberately mislead voters on important issues.

Do political leaflets count as advertising?

If they do then I believe the ASA has a rule whereby an advertisement cannot contain anything that could insult racial, national, political or religious feelings of consumers.

Mind you, you could say that about just any political leaflet…

Yeah, why isn’t this legally challenged?? Why isn’t this sent to the local papers in Norwich??

Grrr, I wish the left would sometimes learn to fight hard and tenaciously against the right wing…this is how they always end up winning!

I believe there was a case in Barking where BNP literature was proved to be false by a simple thumb through the official data (which the BNP must have forgotten to do that time) and that material was duly binned. I’m sure with your contacts Cath you can do a similar campaign, it needs to be shown how desparate the party is to lie through its teeth to gain votes.

RubberBaron, what you said was in jest I know, but there is spun claims, and there is out and out lying, and the BNP have made a name for themselves in the latter, and it works.

#6 No, they don’t.

Unfortunately political leaflets are completely exempt from any of the advertising codes so the ASA won’t even look at them, as I found out when I put in a complaint about their use of stock photos in the Euro/local election leaflets.

So they’ve progressed from using stock photos to getting sitting councillors from another area to star in the leaflets. As well as Mr Owens I’d put £1.50 0f my own money on the other ‘ordinary citizens’ being party officers of family members of the same.

Tim @9: Yeah, I suspected as much.

Carl @8: I agree, and UKIP and other hard right nightmares are just as bad at spouting egregious untruths. Real human beings in Norwich will have to work hard to refute every piece of mendacious crap the BNP publicises – and to publicly ridicule BNP spokespeople about their untruths (which really shouldn’t be so hard).

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Carl

I believe there was a case in Barking where BNP literature was proved to be false by a simple thumb through the official data (which the BNP must have forgotten to do that time) and that material was duly binned. I’m sure with your contacts Cath you can do a similar campaign, it needs to be shown how desparate the party is to lie through its teeth to gain votes.

It’s a great idea, but unfortunately the election is tomorrow. I only received the leaflet yesterday, so writing this piece was the most immediate and effective way I could come up with to counter the BNP nonsense given the time-scale available to me.

Had I had the leaflet a few weeks ago trust me, I’d have been happy to take them on in the local press and anywhere else I could think of.

Great piece, anyone know if the four pictured people are real BNP voters or are, as last time, stock images stolen from somewhere?

I understand it’s the “Reverend” Robert West, who runs the Christian Council of Britain, standing for the BNP in Norwich North. Look at the CCOB’s constitution:
http://www.ccob.co.uk/?page_id=6

It was particularly borne in mind that, in the two hundredth anniversary of the abolition of the Negro slave trade within the British Empire, a worse form of slavery (of the mind) should not be imposed upon the peoples who had withstood absolutism and totalitarianis>m in their history, both at home and abroad. The Christian Council of Great Britain and Northern Ireland therefore resolved not to regard our inalienable freedoms and rights as negotiable; but rather to be preserved, conserved and held-in-trust for our progeny, and for all peoples.

Thank you for an excellent exposure of yet more BNP LIES from someone in a position to know.

I agree with commentators who suggest these lying leaflets be legally challenged.

I have re-posted this on the HOPE not hate, Norfolk website, and thank you again.

What I don’t understand is why lib/lab/con don’t simply destroy the BNP vote by doing what most of the British public actually want i.e. propose putting a stop to all further immigration and rapidly removing the million or more bogus asylum seekers and illegals.

Being from West Yorkshire, though a regular vistor to Norwich, I can see why this might not seem such an important matter in Norfolk, but in the towns and cities of the North this really is now a truly MASSIVE problem.

It is no surprise that the BNP plus UKIP garnered three million votes in the Euro elections.

Interesting to see how ‘Rev’ Thingimibob gets on in Norwich. Rather fewer votes than in the North I suspect.

17. Margin4Error

A legal ruling a long time ago emphasised that untruths in political campaign material was legal – as this did not constitute advertising, and as to rule out untruths meant every variation in opinion would face legal challenge instead of debate within civil society.

I’m a big fan of that ruling. I remain a sceptic of the growing trend for MPs to report political scandals to the police – since it generally serves to stifle debate about that scandal, when debate itself is the scrutiny that best overcomes scandal.

So as much as I oppose this sort of factual innacuracy in campaign material – I can’t say I support any notion of a legal challenge. It is for their opponents to make the counter case. Which isn’t too hard when the words printed are a plain and simple lie.

Steve:

I’m afraid your premise about what most of the British public want is not true and open to debate.

Mostly on your stats, the number of illegal immigrants numbers anywhere between 310,000 and 570,000 and do not confuse asylum seekers with illegal immigrants, very different thing indeed.

Legalising illegal immigrants in the US and whatnot has helped the economy not destroyed it.

People need educating but many don’t want to see the reality and prefer to fall back on bigotry.

#16

Well, apart from the fact that it would be morally wrong, it’d be completely impossible. If you tried to stop immigration completely you’d have to stop tourism, (destroying lots of British jobs and a vital revenue source), foreign students (destroying a vital funding source for our universities and refuse to permit relatives of people in this country from visiting them for weddings, funerals etc. All people entering the country for these reasons could “disappear”, effectively migrating.

You’d also have to pull out of the EU (the only way of withdrawing from agreements on freedom of movement within the EU), which would cost millions of jobs, and pull out of various human rights agreements, which would be doable but not if we want to get countries like Iran and China to take human rights more seriously.

Even then you’d have to fund a border police of stasi-esque proportions, and you’d have to disrupt trade, particularly any industry which relies on imports, severely, which would make Britain an unattractive prospect for investment and cost, wait for it, more jobs.

And that’s just preventing further immigration. Deporting all so-called illegal immigrants would cost billions of pounds (chartered flights are incredibly expensive, and there would also need to be a massive increase in detention facility to make it feasible, which is also massively expensive) and to do it without following the correct procedures (being able to get other countries to agree that the people we’re deporting are from their country, for example) would flame international tensions and could be interpeted as an act of war. (If that sounds silly, imagine Afghanistan flying 200,000 Americans to Britain, dumping them here and saying they thought they were British, and the outrage that would cause.) You’d also have a semi-police state as anyone suspected of not being British (ie anyone who wasn’t white and/or spoke in a funny accent) was repeatedly stopped by police, asked for proof of citizenship, etc.

Any country that took all these measures (and even with all these measures it’s still not clear that it’s within the power of the state to stop immigration completely) would soon lose the trust and support of the public, so currently parties are stuck between the unpopular position of paying lip service to stopping immigration but not doing anything, and the unpopular results of actually doing it.

Margin4Error:

Do you have a link to news about that legal ruling? Interesting if that’s the case.

I wouldn’t have any issue with somebody legally challenging deliberately inaccurate campaign material. It isn’t a difference in opinion, it’s an outright lie and while I agree opposition should highlight untruths I don’t think it should be their sole responsibility. As Cath says, due to the timing this just couldn’t have been refuted before polling, which exposes a problem in relying on other parties to point out lies.

If the law does say that political parties are allowed to knowingly misinform in campaign material, I find that quite worrying.

Does not a pretty obvious problem with the argument “If you do pretty much exactly what the BNP are calling for, you’ll kick the bottom out of the BNP” present itself?

22. Victorshannock

It is baffling to someone whose family originated in Norwich to understand why Norwich should be selected for settlement for such admittedly vulnerable persons as those from the horrors of the Congo, and is this really fair or just to either them or the local people ie creating such a diverse society when growing up in ythe City this was then not the case. Whoever is providing accommodation in the City – if paid by the Home Office or not it is housing being taken that would otherwise be available – obviously!

#24 Actually, no. Often asylum seekers are housed in housing that is deemed unfit to house British people, and so British people wouldn’t be housed there whether the asylum seekers were there or not.

(Of course, I don’t believe anybody should be housed in unfit housing, I’m just showing that what you believe isn’t necessarily the case.)

@24, do you change lightbulbs when they go pop? Or do you just leave them up there because CHANGE IS BAAAAAAD?

25. B.N.Peterson

Dear Catherine,

Thank you for confirming the BNP were right in what they said about Asylum Seekers.

You openly admit people from the Congo, who have only been in the Country for 5 minutes, get housed.

I know cases where British people have been on the housing waiting list for over a decade. How about moving them into private housing?

Britain has a finite supply of housing (council & private). So difficult choices have to be made. The BNP (and the majority of the British public) say we should house our own people first.

You need to get out of the Westminster bubble and start speaking to real people.

Regards
B.N.Peterson

@27

Hahahaha, who is that? that’s the best satire I’ve read in ages, as though British people don’t feel sick at the mention of the BNP!

Am I the only the only one to notice the “ethically pure” practically Aryan nuclear family at the bottom of the 2nd leaflet? They’re not even trying to be convert in advertising their sick shit.

Here’s the relevant advertising code, check out 12.1 and 12.2

http://www.asa.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/AE1CB9D7-0981-4792-8FF1-C27A39DA917E/0/CAPCode.pdf

@ #13, as I said back at #3, one of the people featured is Cllr David Owens from Boston District Council.

Think the family at bottom right of page 2 featured in the ‘BNP Wives’ documentary but can’t remember their names

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6145793487676011977

29. Scot Richards

I wish people would stop calling the BNP a ‘far right’ party. They are nothing of the sort. The BNP are a NATIONALIST/SOCIALIST party – same as Hitler’s Nazis (Nationalist and Socialist Workers Party).

Right wing parties are characterised by SMALL government under the control of the people. Left wing parties are characterised by BIG governments who control the people.

If they are so right-wing why are people flocking from Labour (socialist) to them? I don’t see many traditional Conservative voters switching to BNP.

Yawn.

Please let’s not get into whether the BNP are left or right. They’re just wrong – let’s leave it at that.

31. Concerned Steve

Cath’s article is precisely why the BNP will continue to grow. The left just doesn’t understand its voters’ concerns any more and more and more of them are listening to the far left racist parties and many will therefore vote BNP.

You say (paraphrasing), “No one in Norwich lost any council provision of accomodation because that stock is ringfenced for local people (who pay the local council taxes). Any accomodation for immigrants is paid for by Government (from central funds) and therefore local people are not missing out”. I hope that is a fair precis.

Those BNP targets will understand that as the following, “The goverment is spending our money (we don’t care which pot you put it in and then take it from) providing extra accomodation for foreigners (who have never paid tax here) when we have locals (our son, daughters, grandchildren) that need that accomodation. Why are they not spending the extra on us?”. Do you see?

Regardless of the merits of immigration / the Gateway Programme etc, the dog whilsting provided by the BNP is reaching the voters. If we want to stop them growing (and I’m right of centre) we (the centre-left / centre-right) need to be smarter. Defences such as the above only helps them.

In sincerity,

Steve

32. Concerned Steve

And yes, I realised I dropped an ‘m’ from accommodation. Twice. But I’m tired.

I see you deleted my comments, It just proves the leftist of this channel does not allow opposition “free speech” but of course thats typical of the oppresive tactics that they use. hmmmmmmm anyways enjoy ur time in power leftys it sure is coming to an end because the BNP are growing rapidly and theres not a thing u can do to stop it 😀

27 – shite name, but still

I know cases where British people have been on the housing waiting list for over a decade. How about moving them into private housing?

Or how about having a massive publicly financed house building program? For social housing – then people can get into rented accommodation at very reasonable cost.

From speaking to idiotic BNP supporters they tell me, in some form of broken English – with a lot of ‘fuckin” in it – that it is the ‘immigunts’ who done all this bad stuff to the UK. Interestingly they seem to plane over the fact that social housing has been ignored by both Tory and NuLab – sell the properties and just take that as a top-up of the council tax.

Here we return to Thatcher and her pathetic, and by default Cameron, ethos of all people should be home owners and that will clean up estates, make people richer because they can sell their assets. Forgetting, of course, that the whole of the recent recession was – and will be again – caused by over inflated house prices.

The BNP are going to build a feckload of houses, build roads (laughable) plus loads of other public works – to get Britons back to work – and then what? The UK, if you haven’t noticed has a lot of roads, and infrastructure anyway.

The immigration of a few 100K people will have almost zero effect on the UK economy unless they are billionaires and even that is arguable.

How the BNP are going to renegue on all the international agreements the UK has with other nations flabbergasts me.

As a political party they are as pathetic as a child wanting to take their ball home which actually belongs to the school.

@19: [Stopping immigration] would be completely impossible. If you tried to stop immigration completely you’d have to stop tourism, (destroying lots of British jobs and a vital revenue source), foreign students (destroying a vital funding source for our universities and refuse to permit relatives of people in this country from visiting them for weddings, funerals etc. All people entering the country for these reasons could “disappear”, effectively migrating.

You are of course absolutely right. The debate on immigration is often portrayed as all or nothing, zero immigration versus unlimited immigration. Neither option is possible, and anyone framing the debate in those terms is either an idiot or a fraud.

Well Labour have publicly confirmed that immigrants were first on the housing lists, as they have introduced the system of putting local folk first. so obviously there was a problem there. then the EHRC jump on the bandwagon and make a cover up “by saying its a myth” but reality is its NOT a myth its very real !!

But still other than that, the left fail to discuss the issue that the indigenous folk of this country will become a minority within 40-50 years time, and thats going by demographic figures. i suppose thats just a “myth” to brush aside aswel? or just simply ignorant and not bothered?????

37. bill johnson

What Cath fails to explain is that even if the council did not house these immigrants it does not change the fact that our taxes are being spent on these people and we have just about had it with this carry on.
The latest opion poll shows 80% of voters want immigration STOPPED,so until the goverment start listening to the people the BNP and UKIP will continue to grow more votes.Enough is enough.

Why is it that BNP threads always attract BNP apologists?

You’d think they’d stay away from having their backward views crushed like beetles?

The thing is it really dosn’t matter whether those in the Gateway programme are taking local social housing or being housed privately. People don’t care about that. They just see immigrants being housed at taxpayers expense while they continue to wait for housing. Those waiting would be delighted if the council chose to put them up in privately owned accomadation, but instead they see immigrants housed as a priority. It doesn’t matter which pot of money it comes from either.

As a member of the group that run the scheme, you are actively helping the BNP by housing these people.

The peoplw will decide through the ballot box-end of story .
You “Doogooders” have had 13 years to give us paradise .Instead you’ve given us debt riddled madhouse where the indiginous people will be outnumbered in 40 yrs time thanks to differential rates .God help my grandchildren !
Thank you for nothing
A voter

Mikey, you daft racist, you’re talking out of your arse.

Pull yourself together man and get a sense of common decency so that you’re not such a bloody embarassment to your grandkids.

Until you stop using blanket ideas like ‘Doogooders” and talking about “indiginous people” in your verbiage you can’t expect anyone to take you seriously.

Yours sincerely,

An indiginous voter who thinks you’re a tit.

@ all the silly BNP people and the equally stupid people that are claiming that housing refugees is ‘helping the BNP’;

There is absolutely nothing stopping your beloved ‘indiginous people’ taking up private rented housing. I’m even willing to bet that there are publicly funded agencies that will help you find it and, if you are on a low income you can get publicly funded housing benefit to help pay the rent.

So it seems to me that all these refugees have had is some extra help in settling in a new country which doesn’t seem so unreasonable considering many are probably traumatised and they find themselves in a completely different culture. And all that from a scheme that has gone out of its way to ensure that it doesn’t compromise the allocation of social housing to locals nor eat into local budgets.

I mean, all these freeloaders had to do to be handed such riches is to survive a war zone and watch their family and friends be killed in front of them. These forriners have it so easy.

“God help my grandchildren”

As in “God help my grandchildren – don’t let them turn out like me.”

Yes, I love this idea that following any policy the BNP disagree with is ‘helping the BNP’, so we should stop doing it.

That’s Globalisation fucked, then…

45. Concerned Steve

I’m 33 and my father is Spanish, and I spent most of my pre-adult life in Hertfordshire. I revealed that for context.

Through the 80’s whilst at school, I had a black friend. We sometimes got ‘racist’ (the Spanish aren’t a race, but you know what I mean (Ok, xenophobic)) comments, but they were the childish equivalent of calling someone ‘big ears’ – something different about you to which you could be teased.

As we grew older and until we left for higher education in the early/mid 90’s, as our peers grew older with us, so they left such insults behind (along with ‘big ears’) and there were no problems. We were all British; we were contributing.

Over the last 5 years, I’ve seen my home town become more and more divisive and openly racist and xenophobic. People who are normally thoroughly decent now openly speak in those terms. And whether the left likes it or not, they ARE seeing a big influx of foreign cultures impacting on their everyday lives. And do you know what? They don’t like it. They’re not ready for such widescale change. And whilst all the major parties do not seriously address immigration, the BNP will grow stronger as, whilst their platform is unpalatable and extreme, it is the only option for those that feel that way.

Continuing the argument along the lines of what seems to be unmanaged immigration as a positive thing will only alienate these voters more. So we have a choice: do we listen to what these voters want and address their concerns or do we carry on as we are and hope the resentment has a limited and small

Personally, I think it’s the former, which means that we have to dramatically change our immigration policies and levels and defuse the situation. Once defused, we should then re-affirm our positive attitudes to immigration and I’m sure (/hopeful) that we can then introduce higher levels in a way that is accepted. As a believer in democracy, I believe we must win the argument, not impose our view.

In sincerity,

Steve

46. Concerned Steve

Correction to above:

“Continuing the argument along the lines of what seems to be unmanaged immigration as a positive thing will only alienate these voters more. So we have a choice: do we listen to what these voters want and address their concerns or do we carry on as we are and hope the resentment has a limited and small area in which to further grow?”

S.

@ Concerned Steve

By no stretch of the imagination could it be said that there is ‘unmanaged immigration’ into the UK.

Such a claim is uniformly made by racists trying to demonise immigrants.

48. Joe Grundy

“I represented Norfolk Library and Information Service on the multi-agency Norwich Asylum Seeker and Refugee Forum (NASREF), ”
Its a parody right ? A spoof ! And then you wonder why the grunts have finally flipped and raised two grubby fingers at the Guardianistas.

The problem is not immigration but the feeling that we are suffering because the gap between rich and poor is widening – it is now the widest for over 50 years as Blair and Brown have undone all the work to improve fairness under Macmillan, Wilson, Heath and even Thatcher and the BNP is exploiting those people seeking an explanation. There is a report (publicised in the Financial Times, so most poor people will not see it) that immigrants are, in aggregate, contributing significantly more in taxes than they are receiving in benefits.
So it is a demonstrated fact that it is not the fault of immigrants but of New Labour’s policies that have consistently favoured the rich, especially the non-domiciled rich (very few of whom are EU citizens so EU immigration is not relevant in this context) because their advisers in 1997 were scared of the prospect of a mass exodus to tax havens.
I don’t live in Norwich but I do know that many (and I believe most) refugees are housed in accommodation in which no locals on the housing list will accept (which may be why so many get sent to Glasgow which has a shrinking population), so very few, if any, can be accused on taking priority over locals for accommodation.
Also, housing benefit does apply to those on means-tested benefits living in privately-rented accommodation, so no-one queuing for social housing is suffering from Gateway
PS I do mean Thatcher. Data published by the Inland Revenue while Brown was Chancellor showed that under Thatcher the share of national wealth owned by the top 1% and top 5% declined – they stopped publishing (and deleted the last lot of data from their website) when the share of national wealth (excluding owner-occupied houses) owned by the top 1% had risen by 40% under New Labour (while that of the bottom 50% had fallen by two-thirds) and someone noticed and publicised the facts.

Concerned Steve:

This division and open racism is based on ignorance, not based on bad immigration policy, although bad immigration policy is not getting the truth of immigration out and Labour have faile dvery, very badly at that.

And I disagree, the BNP is only an option if you’re very stupid, simply because the policies are utterly unworkable. Lack of intelligence and ignorance are a dangerous combination.

Joe Grundy:

NASREF isn’t a joke, or would you prefer it that asylum seekers and refugees had no voice?

“And then you wonder why the grunts have finally flipped and raised two grubby fingers at the Guardianistas.”

Oh dear, what a shabby sentence that is.

51. Concerned Steve

@ 50 Andy

First of all, in the spirit of friendly discussion, I will assume that your inference that I am a racist to be unitentional. And of course you always have another comment to make it clear that you don’t believe me to be.

Whether or not the immigration is managed or unmanaged, the perception is that it is unmanaged. Until those that are drifting towards the BNP (for the reason of immigration) are convinced it is under control (whatever that means), then it will continue. Personally, I don’t think it is managed – that does not make me a racist, and to call people who share that view racist (or any other name) will only alienate them further from your view, and we need to engage – the Government cannot give you accurate figures about who and how many people have joined our nation and are still here, nor can they have managed it (in terms of infrastructure demands) properly if their own projections have been out so badly (remember the prediction of Polish workers being out c.10x)?

@53 Daniel.
Thanks. Absolutely agree with the first paragraph – but think the most effective way to is to first defuse the situation (and we need to defuse it fast because some parts of the country are experiencing regular violence because of these growing extreme views) and then in a defused situation, where people are then ready to listen again, remind them of the importance and merits of immigration.

RE the second paragraph, I disagree. There will be plenty of intelligent people who support all manner of views that I abhor (racism and xenophobia being two of them). What you will see the BNP doing so well is connecting with vast numbers of people who don’t really follow politics but hear the BNP addressing their ‘concerns’ whilst the main parties are not.

In sincerity,

Steve

Concerned Steve:

Andy is one of many that have had to bat off the incorrect idea that immigration into the UK is a free for all, as that is a dangerous lie.

To be clear, immigration is managed and only some people, who either want to or do not wish to access the kniowledge on the matter think it is unmanaged and quite frankly, I’ve little time for them.

Only a small percentage of the UK population, 900,000 people at the last count, turned to the BNP’s “policies”, less than last time so let us keep perspective, it is human nautre to always have some mal-informed idiots strolling about.

And don’t mention Poles, I’m an expert on them, they pay a fortune in taxes and imput millions into the UK economy.

I defusing sounds like appeasement of racists to me, I prefer educating people.

900,000 out of 62 million feel the BNP is addressing their concerns, I doubt any of them are ‘intelligent’ because if they were they’d read the polices and go: ” these are unworkable bollocks” and then they’d vote for someone else.

53. Concerned Steve

Daniel,

Again I agree with your opening statement. But the problem is that the perception is that it is out of control and that the State is lying. Until there is honesty and reliable data to support our arguments for the benefits of immigration, they are not going to listen.

In terms of the Polish ‘BRING’EM OVER’. They are hard working and polite and my father (an immigrant) will always employ them in his family run restaurant – we currently have 2 working for us, and have done for 3 years.

I prefer educating people too. My worry is that whilst those of us in favour of immigration continue to label those that are having problems with it (and many aren’t racist / xenophobic – they just seem not to like the pace of change and / or perception that that immigrants have advantages to accessing resources – and we both know the opposite is true) and alienating them further and further away, the groundswell of opinion in places is at or close to a tipping point where it will be acceptable to vote BNP.

We had the chance to win the immigration argument at a time of wealth and opportunity. Instead the state lied and manipulated the figures and lost trust. Now we are in a downward economic cycle and we need to relieve the pressure as I believe (and again I hope I’m wrong) some areas are ready to explode in violence. Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win the war.

PS Wow! 900,000 votes – presumbably that was at the recent elections that you’ve got that figure from? (I say ‘wow’ because that means 1 in 45 of all eligible voters got off their backsides and voted BNP).

PPS I’ve just emigrated for the second time in my life. The first time was to explore the world. This time it’s because I’m starting to feel unwelcome in my own country (not from the immigrants, but from the white folk).

Concerned Steve:

First of apologies for confused spelling and missing letters in my last comment, I can write when the mood takes me.

To be clear, perecption is not out of control, not be along shot, I think a dose of reality is in order and not to get ahead of ourselves. As for the State lying, I’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

As for your fear of labelling racists, igots and xenophobes as racist, bigots and xenophobes…sorry but a spade is a spade and we all have to accept that there will always be idiots, such is the joy of humanity but let us rejoice at just how few idiots there are in the UK.

And yes, 900,000 votes is from the EU elections this year, down on the last Eu election and yes it is still 900,000 too many but out of 62 million people, as I said, there will always be fools.

55. Concerned Steve

Daniel,

For me lying includes a deliberate misrepresentation of facts. For example (and I’d wish I’d kept the link), migration application figures for those entering the country and those leaving are not calculated the same way (or at least they weren’t a couple or few years ago). So a family of 4 entering the UK would count as 1 application, whereas a family of 4 leaving the UK would count as 4 and thus the same family arriving and leaving would give a net figure of -3 people, when the true figure is 0. That’s a poor and, I accept, dodgy example – I’m 7 hours ahead here and too tired to find the countless examples that I’ve come across. I should add that that is in the pursuit of general transparency and consistent use of figures across all areas, and I’ve found that Crime, the Economy, Immigration and Climate Change seem to have the most meddling. Anyway, I digress

I checked the figures (see below link) and the BNP got 6.2% of the vote with 950,000 votes. To say that’s not much from 62m is the wrong argument. It was 950,000 out of 15.3m votes cast. So nearly 1 in 15 all people who were motivated enough to vote, voted BNP.

Regardless, of all the arguments as to why they voted BNP, they still did it. And 1 in 15 is a high number; and regardless that the FPTP voting system will work against them in a General Election, if 1 in 15 people hold those views (even if they choose a mainstream party for the main election) then we are looking at a real issue that we have to deal with head on.

Again, if the left (and the right) continue to try and address this by silencing, ridiculing and insulting the BNP and its supporters then they will continue to grow and they will continue to ignore mainstream politicians. Let’s bring them out into the open, expose their views and appeal to people’s humanity.

In sincerity

Steve

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/08/bnp-protest-vote-success
As an aside, the journalist also thinks we could be at a tipping point – and it’s not often you’ll get a centre-right protanganist using the Guardian to back up his view!

Well the government should get the message soon LOUD AND CLEAR. 80 % of the british public want a cap on immigration, reduced to 50,000 per year , so thats a start, and geez you gotta love the leftists who play the race card . when they run out of argument and things to stay they start screaming “nazi” and “racist” FAILLLLLLLLL

Interesting article.

It does seem to me that the facts which you describe in the article provide considerable justification for the BNP claims.

It is quite pathetic to claim that your africans were not housed in local authority housing, or using local authority money.

They were housed in local housing, using public money.

By the way, have you read http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/5200078/part_2/there-are-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-about-the-housing-queue.thtml

I do think that the BNP are despicable, and dangerous, but I think that they must be fought with truth, not obfuscation, or worse.

Joe

#60 joe
“It is quite pathetic to claim that your africans were not housed in local authority housing, or using local authority money.”
Why is it pathetic to tell the truth?
Thanks for the link – the denunciation of the spin is quite fair but as the professor says the 1.8% is a “killer” statistic, since most of the social housing used for refugees is that rejected by those in the local housing queue. A significant proportion of that 1.8% is made up of social housing granted to “key workers” – immigrants who have come here to work for the NHS or Education at wages that are spurned by British citizens and are allocated social housing because their wages are not enough for them to get a mortgage on a one-bedroom flat in the area that they work (or within commuting distance by public transport) and we want to exploit them. Far less than 1% of housing which might be used by people desiring social housing is used by refugees or economic immigrants.
Of course the BNP must be fought with truth, but the truth is that refugees get housing that the locals spurn – because those fleeing rape and murder in Rwanda and the Congo, or the Kurdish areas of Iraq and Turkey, or Sudan, or … will accept whatever they are offered even if it is overdue for demolition. Next time you meet a BNP voter ask him/her if he/she would live in some of the places that our so-high-minded New Labour government puts refugees, most of whom are suffering from traumatic distress that would leave them feeling scared in Kensington.

“Whether or not the immigration is managed or unmanaged, the perception is that it is unmanaged.”

Lets assume for a moment that my perception is that you are a racist because you appear to be pushing views common to many racists.

Do you agree that makes you a racist?

Does my perception mean that you must be treated as a racist?

Should we send the rozzers round because my perception of racists (of whom I theoretically perceive you to be one) is that they are likely to commit race hate crime?

I suspect that your answers to those questions would be no to all three.

So, why does it make sense to base public policy on perception rather than reality, especially when doing so would subject many individuals to poor treatment, extreme danger, even death?

We’re entitled to expect public policy to be rational and clamping down on immigration because of an evidence free ‘perception’ that immigration is ‘unmanaged’, when it clearly is subject to quite strong management, is about as far from rationality as you can get.

……and I believe the BNP are also out to ban mung beans, tree hugging and hairy armpits.

Concerned Steve:

I never said the way immigration data is collected is perfect but I don’t see it as lying and I’d like to think our government was trying to give us credit for not being hung up on such silly ideas about being swamped, when in reality we are not.

That made an error there and gave the UK voters far too much credit.

As for 900,000 being not too much, yes it is, it is not a wrong argument and it is a blessing we don’t suffer more idiots than that, picking the percentage of the electorate is flawed when turn-out was so low, the 1 in 15 stat is pointless scaremongering. You seem to be seeking fear out rather than looking cold at the facts.

So just to be clear, your 1 in 15 stat is an inflation based on turnout and if you look at the entire UK poplation and see that only 900,ooo voted BNP, do remember that more people voted Green, or even Independent candidates than voted BNP, so try not to worry too much.

But I see the reason you’re worrying is to pump up your own argument of the concerns that need to be addressed; whcih is all well and good but carries no weight with me.

John:

You’re making stuff up and shouting like a monstrous tit, do calm down and perhaps bugger off?

Joe:

You’ve been had elsewhere.

A different John:

Spot on! But it seems many are deaf to the truth here.

Andy:

Excellent point, policy on perception is always dangerous stuff and history is littered with manipulation of public pereception to secure unworkable ideas in practice. Excellent argument.

Peter H:

“……and I believe the BNP are also out to ban mung beans, tree hugging and hairy armpits.”

Heh.

So Craig Murray beat the BNP!

Indeed he did!

Hurrah!

And did you see the Libertarian with 36 votes?

#59

“Well the government should get the message soon LOUD AND CLEAR”

I’m sure they have. BNP in 7th, with 2.74% of the vote. (That’s what, about 1 in 40 voters, or about 1 in 90 of the general population.) The vast majority of people clearly don’t agree with the BNP. I hope the government have got that message LOUD AND CLEAR.

The questionable cleric Robert West denounced, and a decided failure at the ballot box for the BNP.

Good.

Taxpayers are the modern slaves, the failed multicultural plan of communists/socialists is evident in every major UK city and it WILL get worse.

And as the new generation become of age, they will start to realise that something is ‘not quite right’…. Brought up with expectations of Instant gratification rather than work & saving, disrespectfull and blowing childish comments will not prevent enslavement to the new EU police state.

http://www.immigrationwatch.com/

The director of Civitas, David Green, added in his formal press release on the matter that a “democracy relies on the honesty of official statistics so that our differences can be settled by peaceful debate, but the EHRC report on social housing fails the most fundamental tests.

Can I submit the first sentence of that comment as evidence to anyone who doesn’t think the BNP are right-wing?

Gonfra’s clearly a bit of a tit.

69. Peter Vidal

I am afraid that Cath Elliott has made the BNP’s case for them.

I do not dspute her honesty or knowledge in this area and so use the facts exactly as she has provided them.

Firstly she says that because the 150 refugees from Africa were housed in the private sector this does not impact on the local population as asserted in the BNP leaflet. Unfortunately, the economic laws of supply and demand suggest otherwise. If you take out 150 units of accomodation, that is 150 places less for the local population. Furthermore, if you take 150 places out of the supply side of the equation, then the cost of the remaining units increases.

Secondly, Cath says that the Home Office paid the bill for the refugees. Where does the Home Office get its money if not form you, me Cath and the tax payers of Norfolk?

When these 150 refugees go to the NHS for treatment, the money for their treatment will be paid by the NHS. Again, this is public, tax payers money that will meet this bill.

The 150 refugees will also be competing with the local population of Norfolk for jobs. Every job they take will be a job not available to a local man or woman.

I disagree with Cath Elliots support for taking refugees. OK, this is a democracy and we can disagree and remain civilised. What makes me angry, however, is Cath’s complete denial of the costs that must be met in persuing this policy. It would be more honest if she acknowledged the difficulties she is creating and then put forward the argument that this was the right thing to do anyway.

If you are going to pursue this policy, at least be honest and acknowledge that, right or wrong, the BNP have made a valid point and that the supply of available accomodation has beed reduced and that the tax payer has paid for this benefit for these asylum seekers ahead of the local population looking for a place to live.

Peter

Look, if we’re going to talk about honesty, perhaps we could have some honesty from all the anonymous comments (with names in black & no link to profiles etc) from people who have never posted on this site before, and have only commented on this post.

Is it a coincidence that so many people have turned up to this site for the first time, with similar points of view, all sympathising with the BNP’s viewpoints without saying they themselves are members or supporters? I wonder if some of them even have similar IP addresses…

Indeed, bloody bigots ahoy, we’ve been snowed under round here with them.

#72 Vidal
First you are misquoting Cath
Second you are assuming that there was a shortage of rented housing in Norwich so taking housing for 150 people – not 150 units of accommodation – would push up the level of rents which was not the case. Norwich has over 120,000 residents so the refugees are occupying 0.1% of the housing stock – not enough to make a difference unless there was already a shortage. As I pointed out earlier most refugees occupy accommodation that the locals do not want.
You cannot have it both ways – if the refugees have jobs then they are contributing to the cost of the NHS. Anyhow most of the cost of NHS care is associated with the time of birth and the last year before death, so refugees who were not born here and not about to die cost very very little.
There are some 60 million people in Britain (and a few million businesses) that jointly pay for the cost of the Home Office – that is 400,000 people and more than 10,000 businesses per refugee settled in Norwich – I was thinking of offering to refund your personal contribution but as it was less than the cost of a second class stamp it would cost more to post it than it was worth.
#73 tim f
“Is it a coincidence that so many people have turned up to this site for the first time, with similar points of view, all sympathising with the BNP’s viewpoints without saying they themselves are members or supporters?”
I turned up for the first time because I saw a link in another blog – I do not sympathise with the BNP’s views and I am not a supporter but if there is a link titled “The BNP lies in Norwich North” you must expect BNP members to follow it and troll: actually there were not all that many compared to some blogs.

Daniels makes childish comments and can be ignored

Gonfra you’re the goon mate, with your racist nonsense and immigration phobic bollocks that always seems to come with threads like this.

Pretty digusting pal.

75. Peter Vidal

#75 Different John and #73 Tim f accuse me of being a BNP member. I am not. I cannot speak for other people chatting in this thread but I arrived here looking to see how the BNP did in the Norfolk by election.

Isn’t it a pity that we canot discuss this issue withour resorting to peurile name calling. Immigration has such a profound impact on our culture, our economy and our way of life and yet to discuss ones concerns is to invite invective from the liberal lobby who will tolerate no dissension from thier view. Surely this is just as intolerant as those in the BNP you seek to castigate.

Different John seeks to support Cath’s original thesis by highlighting how little immigration costs us. OK, so 150 people is neither here nor there, but they are only a tiny fraction of legal and illegal immigrants currently living in the UK. Nobody can give proper figures and estimates range as wildly from 1 to 2 million. Nobody knows. But the costs are enormous both in financial and social terms.

Worst of all, we have even sacrificed freedom of speech on this alter of multi culturalism; for, to discuss it, elicits invective, violence and the a complete loss of objectivity. Even the BBC has become tainted and is no longer the bastion of free speech on this issue. It is partisan and yet claims independance as if this was some guarantee of impartiality. That too is a price that has been paid in pursuit of this liberal policy on immigration.

Just a fact check Peter: there is no alter of multiculturalism and the longer you keep using daft phrases like that the less you’re going to be taken seriously.

Also, your 1 million to 2 million figure is wrong and massively over the top.

Also, round here, us decent folk have grown tired of being labelled intolerant as if intolerance is a bad idea, fact check, tolerating all ideas makes you an asshat, quality control of ideas and intolerance to bad ones is good.

Cool.

#78 Peter Vidal
I should be grateful if you would read my posts properly before (or better, instead of) making false accusations. I did not accuse you of being a BNP member. My reply to tim f made the point that, despite being a new contributor to the site, I was not a BNP supporter – the implication was that not all new contributors were BNP supporters, not that all were. As your earlier post referred to the BNP in the third person I assumed that you were a normal human being who had made a mistake and wrote accordingly: if you cannot take helpful criticism, don’t blog.
Actually the number of immigrants and their descendants is over 60 million – there are no surviving descendants of the Ice Age inhabitants of Britain. Most of Britain’s prosperity is thanks to immigrants, such as the Flemish weavers whose skills made Norfolk rich.
The benefits from immigration far outweigh the costs (try some economic analysis of the benefits to the USA).
Cath’s original comment was valid, possibly because she spent far more time drafting and checking it than you or I have in posting comments.
I agree with much of your last paragraph – but not the bit about violence on internet blogs and “this liberal policy on immigration” since Labour’s policies are much less liberal than those adopted by any Conservative government (and this has been true for all Labour governments for as long as I can remember).In my opinion the BBC is partisan because Mrs Thatcher wanted to cut down on waste (e.g. if Jonathan Ross couldn’t get a private sector job why is he paid more than the average, or maybe minimum, wage) and because New Labour has chosen most of the governing body

78. Janice Miller

Just read this after the fact and I think the brochure is OK. The fact is the electorate need to know that Africans are being sent to Norwich and housed here while our own country is in a reccession and we are constantely being told to cutback. I personally don’t want asylum seekers in Norwich from any country and think most of them are scammers anyway. I am glad the BNP made me more aware of this although I am still happy I voted Conservative!

Janice, firstly we aren’t talking about asylum seekers here, the people housed in Norwich were refugees, i.e. they had been accepted as fleeing danger.

That aside, where do you want refugees, or asylum seekers for that matter, to live? bear in mind we have obligations via the UN to look after refugees. Perhaps you’d rather they all stayed in poor African and Asian countries like the vast majority of them do? You just sound like a nimby.

And why do you not want asylum seekers living in Norwich? Is it because you are a racist?

Lastly, what’s your evidence that most asylum seekers are ‘scammers’?

Hi, A different John,

Not accusing everyone who’s new here of being a closet BNP member/supporter; that would be daft. But like you, I think it’s highly unlikely that none of the new people in this thread sympathising with the BNP’s pov (of which you’re clearly not one) are not BNP members or supporters.

I also think all the people spouting anti-asylum seeker nonsense then getting annoyed at being called racists (in some cases even before they’ve been called racist) should read this post: http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/07/16/political-incorrectness-gone-mad/

Janice,
The wealth of Norwich was created in the Middle Ages by asylum seekers!
As a result their skills Norwich became the second richest city (after London) in the whole of England.

82. Michael Treacy

Comment 44 Andy

@ all the silly BNP people and the equally stupid people that are claiming that housing refugees is ‘helping the BNP’;

There is absolutely nothing stopping your beloved ‘indiginous people’ taking up private rented housing. I’m even willing to bet that there are publicly funded agencies that will help you find it and, if you are on a low income you can get publicly funded housing benefit to help pay the rent.

So it seems to me that all these refugees have had is some extra help in settling in a new country which doesn’t seem so unreasonable considering many are probably traumatised and they find themselves in a completely different culture. And all that from a scheme that has gone out of its way to ensure that it doesn’t compromise the allocation of social housing to locals nor eat into local budgets.

I mean, all these freeloaders had to do to be handed such riches is to survive a war zone and watch their family and friends be killed in front of them. These forriners have it so easy.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
I live in a private rented house for which I am charged £525 per calender month. Just 100 yards up the street is an African family who pay, wait for it, …………BUGGER ALL.

If these so-called persecuted people wanted safety then why didn’t they stay in the nearest safe country instead of insisting Britain will become their ‘homeland’. Everyone of them should be sent home to sort their own country out.

“If these so-called persecuted people wanted safety then why didn’t they stay in the nearest safe country instead of insisting Britain will become their ‘homeland’. Everyone of them should be sent home to sort their own country out.”

Most do, the vast majority of refugees are in poor African and Asian countries, UK takes very few and certainly nowhere near our fair share.

The fact that you think that you being charged rent is more important than refugees escaping with their lives clearly demonstrates that you are a pathetic small minded tit. If I lived on your street I know who I’d rather live next door to, the African Family.

84. Michael Treacy

#86 Andy

The fact you’ve resorted to name-calling makes you the ‘tit’. I bet you live in a nice white area and wouldn’t be able to survive in the rough and tumble world of multi-culturism.

The first time you walked into the Muslim areas of Oldham you’d be spotted and have the crap kicked out of you. It doesn’t matter to the Muslims if your black or white but simply being in their area is enough to warrant a severe beating or, in the case of Gavin Hopley, DEATH.

And if you lived on my street and called me a tit I’d ask you to accompany me to somewhere quiet where we could discuss it in private.

This you by any chance?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/person/7395/michael-treacy

Doesn’t look like you’ve done very well at convincing people to vote for the British Nuckledraggers’ Party.

No wonder you get beaten up by schoolkids every time you set foot out of the door.

Now stop making stuff up, only stupid people believe your childish ‘evil Muslims’ stuff, sensible people realise that Muslims, Africans are just like white folks, the vast majority are perfectly good people just trying to get on with their lives, maybe a few aren’t so nice perhaps, that’s people for you.

And while we’re at it Mr Treacy, it appears that you have a number of criminal convictions yourself including violence so its a bit rich of you to go accusing others of wanting to beat people up.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20020414/ai_n12839620/

87. Michael Treacy

Of course it’s me! I can’t think of anyone else with my name who has been involved in politics. And yes Andy you are correct that I have a past. Unfortunately the BBC’s Panorama program didn’t reveal I was a young silly kid when I committed my offences.

One was for beating up a drug dealer who was selling his odious wares to children.

How about these politicians offences……………

Labour

SEX:

. Labour Councillor (Newton Aycliffe) Martin Locklyn – Convicted and jailed for 15 years for sexually abusing 3 14-year-old boys.

. Labour Councillor (North Lincolnshire) David Spooner – Convicted and jailed for 1 year for masturbating in front of 2 young boys.

. Labour Mayor (Westhoughton/Lancashire) Nicholas Green – Convicted and jailed for 10 years for 3 rapes and 13 counts of indecent assault against little girls between the age of 6 and 10. He raped one woman on her wedding day.

. Labour Mayor (Todmorden) John Winstanley – Convicted and jailed for rape and threats to kill. After raping and threatening to kill his terrified victim, Winstanley then ordered the woman to go on all fours before urinating on her.

. Prominent Labour Party activist Mark Tann (who has met Tony & Cherie at Party functions) recently got a 15-year sentence for raping a 4-year old girl on 2 separate occasions.

. Labour’s current Parliamentary Candidate (Reading East) Tony Page – Has 2 Convictions for Acts of Gross Indecency` in public toilets.

. Labour Mayor (Burnley) Peter Swainston – Convicted of sex offences in public toilet.

. Entire Labour Party conspired to conceal the activities of Labour Party activist and serial child-molester Mark Trotter, who died from AIDS before he could be convicted.

. Labour Councillor (North Yorkshire) Raymond Coats – Court appearance for indecently assaulting a woman.

. Labour MP (Rhonda Valley) Chris Bryant poses in his pants on the Internet to advertise himself for casual gay sex encounters. Describes himself as “Horny as buggery” and says, “I’d love a good long fuck”.

. Labour Councillor (Manchester), George Harding – Charged with indecent assault on a girl of 12.

. Labour MP Ron Davies was mugged by a Rasta on Clapham Common while cruising for gay sex. He was photographed again by the media recently, engaged in some `man-on-man` action in a field off a motorway. “I was only looking for badgers” he said.

. Labour Councillor (Durham), Derrick Payne – Arrested by Police following a sex attack.

. Labour MP, Joe Ashton – Caught up in a Police raid while frequenting a brothel. Tried to lie his way out of the scandal.

. Labour Councillor (Shropshire), Derek Woodvine – Arrested by Police in anti-porn operation.

. Labour Councillor (Basildon), Tony Wright – Forced to resign after being caught using his council computer to download porn.

. Labour MP (Sheffield), Clive Betts – Suspended from Parliament for 7 days after being caught forging immigration papers to extend the stay of his Brazilian rent-boy gay lover.

. According to media reports, the names of 2 former Labour Cabinet Ministers said to be `Household names` appear on the `Operation Ore ` list of subscribers to hard-core child pornography. The same FBI investigation, which led to the arrest of rock star Pete Townshend. So who are they Mr Blair?

VIOLENCE:

. Labour Councillor (Kirkby, Merseyside) Charlie Preston – Convicted and jailed for 5 years in 1982 for assault and burglary. Preston broke into the home of a 64 year old man, and beat him up in his bed as he slept before robbing the house. The judge described the case as “As bad a matter of burglary as I can remember” Preston also holds the position on the Council of… `Deputy Cabinet Member for Youth, Citizenship, and Community Safety`.

. Labour Councillor ( Wales ) Denis Jones – Convicted and jailed for unlawful wounding after attacking a neighbour with a sledgehammer.

. Labour Councillor ( Wales ) Ken Brookman – Bit off a mans ear in a dispute over a seat on a train!

. Labour Councillor and former Mayor (Stockton), Keith Dobinson – Investigated by Police for alleged assault on an OAP, which left the old man of 79, hospitalised.

. Labour MP, Tommy Graham – Expelled from Party for his part in driving a person to suicide.

. Labour Councillors (Ilfracombe), Brian Cotton and Tony Cooper – Investigated by Police following serious allegations of Harassment.

CORRUPTION:

. Labour Councillor (Sandwell) Mohamed Niwaz convicted of illegally obtaining £20,000 in Housing Grants.

. Labour Councillors in Doncaster – 23 Convicted and 2 jailed for massive fraud, corruption and theft of public funds. Investigation also uncovered massive Labour Party corruption in neighbouring Rotherham .

. Labour Party Councillor ( Blackburn ), Mohammed Hussein – arrested together with 6 Labour activists on suspicion of Election rigging.

. Labour MP Mohammed Sawar ( Britain ’s first Asian MP – Glasgow) was the subject of a major News of the World investigation a few years ago into bribery and corruption. Despite this, the massive Asian population in his constituency keeps him safely in his seat.

. Labour MP (Leicester) and former Cabinet Minister, Keith Vaz – Investigated for fraud and corruption before quietly leaving his Europe Minister post with `health problems`. According to his former Secretary, Vaz does absolutely nothing in his constituency other than help local Pakistanis with their Immigration cases (which also helps to explain the `whites a minority` status of Leicester and the safe Labour seat of Mr Vaz)

. Labour Party Euro MP, David Martin is currently being investigated for an alleged expenses fraud involving `hundreds of thousands of pounds`.

. Labour Councillor (Glamorgan), Shaun Stringer – Forced to resign following Police investigation into financial corruption.

OTHER:

. Tony Blair recently appointed his close friend/crony and colleague of his wife – Ken Macdonald as the new Director of Public Prosecutions, despite the fact he has a drugs conviction.

. William Straw – Son of Labour Foreign Secretary, and former Home Secretary – Jack Straw, was cautioned by Police for drug dealing, amid a frantic Government attempt to cover up the matter and gag the media as to his identity. Jack Straw also has a brother who was convicted of a sex attack on a schoolgirl. Lovely family!

. Homosexual mass murderer; Dennis Nielsen, who strangled and dismembered 16 young men in the 1980`s, was also a highly active member of Labour fringe groups such as the Anti-Nazi League, and the SWP. That’s when he wasn’t busy boiling peoples heads in a pot, or masturbating over the corpses of his victims.

Conservative

SEX:

. Tory Party General election candidate, Michael Powell – Convicted and jailed for 3 years for downloading hardcore child porn.

. Tory Party Councillor (Wickbar/Bristol) Roger Talboys – Convicted and jailed for 6 years for multiple sex attacks on children.

. Tory Party Vice-Chairman of Welsh Conservatives, Andrew Baker – Received a banning order for stalking women.

. Tory Party MP (Billericay) Harvey Proctor – Stood trial for sex offences of a sado-masochistic nature against teenage boys, and was forced to resign.

. Tory Party Councillor ( Stratford-upon-Avon ) Christopher Pilkington – Convicted of downloading hardcore child porn on his PC. Placed on sex offenders register and forced to resign.

. Tory Party councillor ( Coventry ), Peter Stidworthy – Charged with indecent assault of a 15-year old boy.

. Tory Party Mayor ( North Tyneside ), Chris Morgan – Forced to resign after being arrested twice in 2 weeks, for indecent assault on a 15-year old girl, and for suspicion of downloading child porn.

. Tory Party MEP, Tom Spencer – Caught smuggling drugs and porn through customs.

. Tory Party councillor and former Mayor (Wrexham), Michael Morris – Convicted and put on probation for 2 years, for the indecent assault of another man, which was captured on CCTV.

. Tory Party Liaison Manager on the London Assembly, Douglas Campbell, who’s job includes running the Tory GLA website – Arrested for allegedly downloading child porn. He is currently suspended while the Police investigation continues.

VIOLENCE:

. Tory Party MP (Henley), Boris Johnson – Caught on tape plotting to have a man beaten up by a hired thug. The man was a journalist who had written an unsympathetic piece about Johnson’s close friend – Convicted fraudster, Darius Guppy.

. Tory Party Councillor (Folkestone – in Leader, Michael Howard’s constituency), Robert Richdale – 41 year history of crime, involving 30 convictions and 5 prison sentences. Richdales enormous criminal record, which covers 10 pages of A4 paper, includes convictions for assault, theft, causing death by dangerous driving, forgery, drugs offences, possession of an offensive weapon, and sex attacks against underage schoolgirls. The Tory Party election campaign literature described Richdale as “a family man” who had a “compassionate personality”

CORRUPTION:

. Tory Party councillor (Dudley), Abdul Quadus, who was also chairman of the Dudley Police Committee and a Tory Party spokesman on crime – Convicted and jailed for 6 months for passport fraud and assisting illegal immigration from his native country – Pakistan.

. Former Tory Party Cabinet Minister, Jonathan Aitken – Convicted and jailed for Perjury and Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Justice.

. Former Tory Leader of Westminster Council, Dame Shirley Porter – Fled to Israel to evade justice after indulging in fraud, corruption and gerrymandering on a massive scale, and stealing millions of pounds from local taxpayers.

. Tory Party Councillor ( Margate ), Colin Kiddell – Forced to resign after Police investigation into his alleged theft and embezzlement of funds from the local `Dreamland` Amusement Park.

. Former Tory Party Chairman and London Mayoral Candidate, Jeffrey Archer – Convicted and jailed for Perjury and Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Justice.

Lib Dem

SEX:

. Lib-Dem Council candidate (Tower Hamlets), Justin Sillman – Convicted and jailed for 2 years for sexual abuse of young boys.

. Lib-Dem Councillor and Mayoral Candidate ( Sheffield ), Francis Butler- Prosecuted for indecent assault of a young boy.

. Lib-Dem Councillor ( Stockport ) Neil Derbyshire – Sexually assaulted a 16-year old boy in a public toilet. He was caught with a plastic bag containing lubricant, plastic surgical gloves, a condom, and underpants.

. Lib-Dem Councillor ( Preston ), Bill Chadwick – Charged with: Making an indecent photograph of a child, Incitement to rape, Incitement to murder, Incitement to kidnap, and Incitement to torture. Chadwick’s gay lover – Alan Valentine, is also a Lib-Dem councillor.

VIOLENCE:

. Lib-Dem councillor (North Norfolk), Catherine Wilkins – Also a nurse until she was struck off the nursing register after being found guilty of mistreating patients and abusive behaviour.

. Lib-Dem Parliamentary candidate ( Burnley ), Paul Wright – Charged with drunken assault on his `lodger`. Wright sobbed like a baby during the court case, and the case is to be re-listed and heard again after the jury failed to reach a verdict.

. Lib-Dem Councillor ( Sheffield ) Trevor Morgan – Convicted and jailed for 9 months for unlawful wounding/dangerous driving. After attacking an elderly woman’s Golden retriever dog by throwing pepper in its face, he then seriously injured the dog’s owner – 57-year old Barbara Johnson, with his car as she tried to stop him escaping.

CORRUPTION:

. Lib-Dem Councillor (Peterborough), Michael Jackson – Prosecuted for 21 counts of Theft and False Accounting.

. 3 Lib-Dem Councillors convicted and jailed for Election Fraud in Hackney in 2001

. 12 Lib-Dem officials convicted of Election Fraud in Oldham in 2001.

. Julie Roberts – Convicted of 9 counts of benefit fraud in 2003. 2 weeks after the court case, she was elected as a Lib-Dem councillor in Leicester !

. Lib-Dem councillor (Portsmouth), Ray Race – Convicted and jailed for 4 months for election rigging, along with Lib-Dem colleague Michael Hayward. Race was arrested again in July 2003 for threatening a witness who helped to convict him.

. Lib-Dem councillor (Lambeth), Gabriel Fernandez – Forced to resign after being investigated for benefit fraud.

OTHER:

. Former Liberal leader Jeremy Thorpe – Stood trail for conspiring to have his blackmailing gay lover murdered.

My offences were committed over 25 years ago and pale into insignificance compared to these bastards.

Do you agree or are mine because I am a nationalist far worse?

88. Michael Treacy

And while I’m here I might ask why you don’t put your full name instead of just your Christian name. Are you scared of being identified?

#91 Michael Treacey
There are good reasons to be remain semi-anonymous, not that we should be afraid for ourselves but because innocent third parties will be targeted.
Both my (white middle-class) sons have already been victimised without any political declaration by myself – the bright one at school for being visibly intelligent after the headmistress at his second primary school insisted that he should be put in a class one year older instead of three – the kids three years older at the previous school were nice to him and didn’t seemed to care what he implied for their intellectual ability while those one year older felt his very existence demonstrated their inferiority – so by the time he left school at 17 he had had more visits to hospital than I have had in my entire life; the younger who has a learning disability (and is a pacifist) has been attacked on many occasions out of school by thugs from the local school to which we wisely refused to send him after an interview there.
So I am not scared for myself – when I was 5 I learned to fight because the overwhelming majority of my primary school class were children of miners and my parents were conservatives. In those days I was allowed to hit back.
However giving the local BNP/Socialist thugs more excuses to attack my pacifist son is not a tolerable option.
Your personal conversion to non-violence is not enough – I need a total commitment from Nick Griffin and all his followers matched by comparable commitments by Gordon Brown and his followers followed those from the “Reform Party” and the British Communist Party.
If you really think I am cowardly I am prepared to meet you under Queensberry Rules with an honest referee – I assume that I should be giving you an advantage as when I boxed at college, a long time ago, I was the lowest locally recognised weight category, bantamweight, and I am older than you are.

The reason I tend to stay anonymous is because the BNP is full of violent yobs like Mr Treacy and they have record of turning up at people’s doors with baseball bats.

As for other party members with convictions that doesn’t surprise me at all but bear in mind that the mainstream parties have quite a few more members and serving politicians than the British Numpty Party. You certainly aren’t the only BNP activist/failed politician to have string of convictions and I think its a safe bet that the rate of thuggery is highest in the BNP.

And its telling how quickly Mr Treacy resorted to implied threats of violence in his post #87. Reverting to type methinks.

91. Michael Treacy

#91 Michael Treacey
There are good reasons to be remain semi-anonymous, not that we should be afraid for ourselves but because innocent third parties will be targeted.
Both my (white middle-class) sons have already been victimised without any political declaration by myself…………
If you really think I am cowardly I am prepared to meet you under Queensberry Rules with an honest referee – I assume that I should be giving you an advantage as when I boxed at college, a long time ago, I was the lowest locally recognised weight category, bantamweight, and I am older than you are.

You liberals really are amazingly stupid at times!

You have two middle-class sons which means you are probably living in an affluent area and there isn’t a member of the ethnic community within 25 miles of your home. Or if there are they are professionals.

Where in my posts have I considered you cowardly? Presuming I took your offer up re Queensbury rules. We both know I would be in a no-win situation. I would, quite rightly, be considered a bully and that is something I have never been. I have always defended myself even against overwhelming odds.

#93 Andy

Are you suggesting I have hit people with a baseball bat? I’m sure I’d be living in a 6 x 8 cell if that were the case. Again your inability to tell the truth shows the contempt you and your ilk have for reasonable debate.

Your dismissing of LIB LAB CON criminal activities disgusts me and I’m sure many others. How can you not feel disgust at their crimes?

Is this animal more worthy of breath than me?

Prominent Labour Party activist Mark Tann (who has met Tony & Cherie at Party functions) recently got a 15-year sentence for raping a 4-year old girl on 2 separate occasions.

Exactly where in my posts have I considered you to be a coward?

The fact is that the BNP did pooorly in Norwich North, the SEVENTH party, with just 2.74% of votes cast when only 45% of the electorate actually voted.

Mr Treacy, your message at 4.22 am where you assume those who oppose the BNP are ‘amazingly stupid’ liberals really is probably not your best.

You are suggesting that those who oppose the BNP are “living in an affluent area and there isn’t a member of the ethnic community within 25 miles of your home”.

I oppose the BNP because I think their policies are hateful, divisive and simplistic. I am not particularly ‘amazingly stupid’ liberal, and I spent much of my life as an expat absolutely surrounded by ethnics, and I still think the BNP’s policies are hateful, simplistic and divisive.

You used BNP-sourced material that lists many criminal activities of various members of other political parties, as if this exonerates the BNP, but two wrongs do not make a right.

This list does not make the criminal convictions of the members of the BNP any the less, including your own.

The BNP lost its deposit in Norwich North, and is facing defeat in many other areas too. I suppose that must be frustrating to you, but instead of looking again at the BNP in a more critical way, you start madly flailaing out at others, as this debate thread shows.

Not the cleverest reaction.

“You have two middle-class sons which means you are probably living in an affluent area and there isn’t a member of the ethnic community within 25 miles of your home. Or if there are they are professionals.”

Can anybody understand this bit? The best I can do is –

“You live in a rich area where there will be no people from ethnic minorities because they are never rich or successful, except for the ones who are”.

Like I said, it doesn’t surprise me at all that Lib/Lab/Con have criminals in their ranks. Mark Tann was also a fundraiser for the NSPCC which suggests he was using these organisations as a cover of respectability to make it easier to commit his crimes. Its certainly not clear how much of a ‘prominent activist’ he was.

In the interests of balance let’s have the list of BNP criminals. It doesn’t include Mr Treacy, starngely.

March 2007 David Copeland
The Appeal Court increases David Copeland’s sentence to a minimum of 50 years. The London nail bomber, who had been an active member of the BNP, had originally been sentenced to a minimum term of 30 years for the three bombs he set off in 1999 which killed three people and injured 139 others.

February 2007 John Laidlaw
John Laidlaw is sentenced to life after going on a shooting spree in north London in May 2006. He shot Abu Kamara in Upper Street before accidentally shooting Emma Sheridan at Finsbury Park Tube station, as he aimed at a second man. Laidlaw had a string of previous convictions starting at the age of 14. They included property damage, public order offences and 16 counts of theft and possession of knives. He also carried out seven armed street muggings and had been in and out of jail several times. In October 2004 he attacked a black motorist, hurling racist abuse at him. A police report written after Laidlaw was arrested for the attack said he behaved violently in front of officers and was “foaming at the mouth”. “In the presence and hearing of the black female gaoler the defendant made racist comments and remarks, stating he was a member of the BNP and that he hated all black people,” the document says. He also said he was going to “kill all black people”. He was convicted of racially aggravated actual bodily harm and using racist language.

February 2007 Robert Cottage
Robert Cottage, a BNP member and former council election candidate, pleads guilty to possessing explosives. He denies, however, as does his co-defendant David Jackson, conspiracy to cause an explosion. The jury are unable to agree a verdict. A retrial will take place in July.

January 2007 David Enderby
David Enderby, a BNP councillor in Redditch, is found guilty of assault on three members of his estranged wife’s family. He is fined £100 for each assault and ordered to pay £100 costs. His wife later told the local newspaper that he had a history of domestic violence.

January 2007 Mark Bulman
Mark Bulman was jailed for five years for setting fire to Swindon’s Broad Street mosque. He used a BNP leaflet as a fuse for his petrol bomb.

December 2006 Richard Mulhall
Richard Mulhall, the BNP’s council group leader in Calderdale, was sentenced to do 200 hours of unpaid work on four counts of benefit fraud. Branding him “thoroughly dishonest”, Recorder Felicity Davies said he only escaped jail because relevant legislation was not yet in force when he committed the offences. He was also ordered to pay £2,000 costs and to repay £603.18 in jobseekers’ allowance. He had already repaid the housing benefit and council tax benefit. A jury had found him guilty in October of falsely claiming a total of £3,002.95 in benefits by concealing the fact that his partner was working.

November 2006 Darren Francis
BNP member Darren Francis is given a five-year restraining order after being found guilty of harassing Sally Keeble, the MP for Northampton North.

September 2006 Robert McGlynn
Robert McGlynn, a Swansea BNP activist, is fined £200 plus £200 costs for shouting racist abuse at an Asian woman. He was convicted on evidence from a passer-by. He later loses his appeal against conviction and is ordered to pay a further £140 in costs.

July 2006 Allen Boyce
The former National Front Remembrance Day parade bugler Allen Boyce, 73, now a BNP supporter, receives a two-year suspended sentence for giving bomb-making instructions to Terry Collins, a BNP member, who was sentenced to five years in 2005 for conducting a racist hate campaign against the Asian community in Eastbourne.

May 2006 Angela Clarke
A former BNP councillor Angela Clarke is fined £200 for resisting arrest during a fracas.

May 2006 Kevin Hughes
Kevin Hughes, who acted as election agent for the BNP Redditch councillor David Enderby in May 2006, is sentenced to 30 months in prison for assaulting an Iraqi asylum seeker. The sentence is later reduced to two years on appeal.

March 2006 Luke Smith
A former BNP Burnley councillor Luke Smith is imprisoned for 11 months for violent disorder, and a further six months for other violent offences. He is also banned from football matches for six years. Smith was expelled from the BNP in 2003 following an assault on a BNP organiser.

February 2006 Stephen Bailey
Stephen Bailey, a Lincoln BNP activist, is convicted of 35 charges of criminal damage and 19 of arson. He set fire to sheds, litter bins and a car and is believed to have vandalised more than 80 cars by slashing tyres and damaging bodywork. Bailey was arrested after police seized computer equipment and documents from his home.

November 2005 Roderick Rowley
Roderick Rowley, a former BNP candidate in Coventry, is imprisoned for 15 months after admitting 14 charges of making, distributing or possessing obscene images of children. He is also ordered to register as a sex offender for ten years.

May 2005 Karl Hanson
Karl Hanson is fined £400 for possessing heroin and crack cocaine. News of his arrest broke a few days before the May 2005 local elections in which he was a BNP candidate in Huddersfield.

April 2005 John Cope
John Cope, a Cheshunt BNP member and election candidate, is fined £750 and ordered to pay £104 costs for harassing an anti-racist campaigner.

March 2005 Terry Collins
Terry Collins, a BNP member, is sentenced to five years in prison for a year-long campaign of terror against Asian families in Eastbourne. He claims the BNP “brainwashed” him. Collins, a former Territorial Army soldier, admitted charges of arson, racially aggravated harassment and criminal damage. He also admitted the possession of bullets found in his home and asked for 11 further offences of racially aggravated criminal damage to be taken into account.

94. Michael Treacy

I won’t argue with some of these but others are very minor or not related to the BNP.

David Copeland for instance left the BNP because they weren’t extreme enough.

John Laidlaw or Terry Collins have ever been a member. Check the BNP membership list if you don’t believe me.

John Cope isn’t on the list.

What is interesting is you never put rapist Robert Bennett on your list (which I presume you pasted from Hope not hate) when he was a leaflet organiser for the Oldham branch. Could the reason be he was the son-in-law of an Oldham councillor and a Searchlight agent.

Do you mean that John Cope SHOULDN’T be on the list cos he’s the second to last one up there?

Not surprisingly, Searchlight ridicule the claim that Robert Bennett was a ‘Searchlight Agent’ although they do claim to have infiltrated the Oldham BNP branch in 2001. That would be your lot eh Treacy? Still feeling a bit sore eh?

And some more…

Nick Griffin (party chairman. That’s the PARTY CHAIRMAN) received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred.

Scott McLean (deputy chairman) was filmed in October 2003 giving Nazi salutes and singing racist and pro-Nazi songs at a winter camp organised by Glasgow BNP.

Dave Hannam (director of Great White Records) was imprisoned in 2000 for helping to produce and distribute a deeply offensive antisemitic and racist BNP leaflet.

Kevin Scott (North East regional organiser) was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

Nick Cass (Yorkshire regional organiser) took photographs of anti-racist campaigners which later appeared on the Redwatch website, run by the nazi terror group Combat 18.

Colin Smith (South East London organiser) has amassed 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

Tony Lecomber (Griffin’s chief lieutenant) was convicted in 1985 on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of home-made hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. He was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment. In 1991 he received another three-year prison term for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. Lecomber has a total of 12 convictions. He was the BNP’s group development officer until January 2006 when he publicly resigned after suggesting that the BNP should begin a terrorist campaign against establishment figures promoting immigration.

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP) had six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary group. Four years later, he was sent to prison again for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted of incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months’ imprisonment. He died in July 2005.

Warren Bennett (former chief steward) was supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998 he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

Robert Bennett, Oldham BNP’s leafletting organiser during the 2002 election campaign, has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions.

Mick Treacy, deputy organiser of Oldham BNP, has five convictions for violence, theft and handling stolen goods.

Dean Wilson, Barnsley organiser. String of convictions dating back to 1982. In 1994 he was sentenced initially to 12 years’ imprisonment for robbery, kidnapping, false imprisonment and firearms offences, reduced to eight years on appeal.

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.

Which of the various offences do you consider to be ‘very minor’?

I do find it odd that Mr. Treacy comes here, spouting such tosh after his party took such an awful beating in the Norwich election and the longer he keeps bashing out the awful ideas he believes in, the worse he is left looking.

He must be very excited that I use my full name but having said that, the last time I tried to meet up with a BNP supporter and challenge their ideas face to face, the BNP supporter chickened out.

Oh dear…

“Mick Treacy, deputy organiser of Oldham BNP, has five convictions for violence, theft and handling stolen goods.”

Well, better arguing here than breaking the law.

98. Michael Treacy

Barbara Suzuki. I like your second name. Are you the commie bike I’ve heard so much about.

#94 Michael Treacy
(i) In #91 you said “Are you scared of being identified?” which many people, even if not you yourself, would interpret as suggesting that I was cowardly. So I suggested Queensberry rules because for them raw guts is even more important than skill or strength.
(ii) In most towns (including all those in which I have lived) the rich and the poor live within walking distance of each other. Nearly all the members of ethnic minorities that I know are working-class rather than “professional” and, as far as I know, none of them are dangerous
(iii) The local yobs are “working-class” (or sometimes non-working class) whites
It is “amazingly stupid” of you if you want to suggest that the Muslim community is the only or main danger to reply to my post in which I referred to the repeated hospitalisation of my son by “You have two middle-class sons which means you are probably living in an affluent area and there isn’t a member of the ethnic community within 25 miles of your home.” as that implies that the vicious bullies were “white British” (actually they were but I do not expect you to proclaim that).

100. Michael Treacy

#94 Michael Treacy
(i) In #91 you said “Are you scared of being identified?” which many people, even if not you yourself, would interpret as suggesting that I was cowardly. So I suggested Queensberry rules because for them raw guts is even more important than skill or strength.

Look John. I have no wish to give you a slap so why do insist on continually mentioning it?

(ii) In most towns (including all those in which I have lived) the rich and the poor live within walking distance of each other. Nearly all the members of ethnic minorities that I know are working-class rather than “professional” and, as far as I know, none of them are dangerous.

Come to Oldham and walk through the Glodwick streets at night. I’ll show you how dangerous ethnics can be.

(iii) The local yobs are “working-class” (or sometimes non-working class) whites
It is “amazingly stupid” of you if you want to suggest that the Muslim community is the only or main danger to reply to my post in which I referred to the repeated hospitalisation of my son by “You have two middle-class sons which means you are probably living in an affluent area and there isn’t a member of the ethnic community within 25 miles of your home.” as that implies that the vicious bullies were “white British” (actually they were but I do not expect you to proclaim that).

I never suggested anything of the sort. You’re either a complete moron or you truly believe everything bad printed about me and I can’t ho;d a balanced view on ‘modern’ Britain.

I am not a communist, I am so ordinary and middle-of-the-road that you would never even notice me, except that I hate the racism of the BNP and will never cease challenging its cruelty to fellow human beings, especially the children.

The BNP is an evil party, imo, because of its unkindnesses to little children of so-called ‘different race’ or ‘mixed race’ or even ‘handicap’.

Your belligerence here on this thread seems to me the typical BNP supporter’s free-floating rage. Directed at a mature person such as myself and others here, it does little harm, except to yourself.

Directed at little children in constand denigration of them as not being truly British, to take one example, when they are born and brought up here, well then, that is when your fury becomes evil of the worst kind.

The great thing about morons from the BNP is their ability to smear themselves so effectively, particularly in comment threads. They make asses of themselves far better than any normal person ever could.

* Waits patiently to be called a communist/UAF agent/loony liberal self-loathing PC pinko *

103. Michael Treacy

Jamie. Are you a communist/UAF agent/loony liberal self-loathing PC pinko? There you are now you can stop waiting and go out and hug trees for the rest of the evening. No need to thank me.

Is Barbara upset with me? Oh dear that will never do will it. Considering you like children and I can’t blame you. They should be protected at all cost. How do you consider the sentence handed down to the Muslim thug who took the life my cousins only son?

Manchester Evening News

Death crash driver jailed

August 16, 2008

A DRIVER who knocked down and killed a teenager during a 70mph car race has been jailed for six years.

Ghulam Hussain, 28, of Deeplish Road, Rochdale, was racing another car and driving in a bus lane, a court heard.

He was found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving after a trial at Manchester’s Minshull Street Crown Court. Hussain, who denied the charge, has also been disqualified from driving for five years.

His car, a Nissan Primera, ploughed into Craig Borland, 19, as he crossed Ashton Road in Oldham.

Craig was on his way to meet his mother, Denise, who was at a nearby hairdresser’s, when the incident happened. She was one of many bystanders who rushed to his aid.

He suffered a massive head injury and died four days later in hospital.

Pc Gareth Thompson said: “Hussain’s driving that day displayed an arrogant disregard for anyone else who may have been using the road.

“He was driving at speeds of up to 70mph down a designated bus lane and was clearly in no position to take evasive action if required. Craig was innocently attempting to cross the road when his young life was cut short.

“I hope Hussain uses his time in prison to reflect on the heartbreak he has caused.”

Witnesses to the horror crash in July said the Primera was racing another car, a blue Citroen Saxo, and both reached speeds of about 70mph.

Other witnesses described seeing both cars weaving in and out of the bus lane at speed.

Craig died at Hope Hospital, Salford, on 31 July.

The owner of the blue Saxo has never been traced.

That’s awful Michael. I feel truly sorry for your cousin’s loss.

Sorry if I seem cold, but what does it have to do with the discussion?

I really can’t believe the mentality of people such as Cath Elliott who wrote this article, are you just Mad, bad, stupid or insane?

You comment, “And I can quite categorically state that no local people lost out on housing to the Congolese refugees who settled here in December 2006/January 2007 and in January 2008, because in order to prevent exactly the kind of resentment that the BNP leaflet is trying to stir up, a decision was taken right at the very start of the process to house the families through private accommodation rather than through the City Council’s housing stock”.

You have just proved from your own mouth that the BNP are indeed speaking the TRUTH about asylum-seekers/refugees taking indigenous local, british people’s housing. Whether these people are housed in private or council housing is irrelevant, it still results in more pressure on housing and less available housing both private and council for indigenous british people!

You also state, “Furthermore, the Gateway Protection Programme was funded in its entirety by the Home Office, so no local resources were spent on housing and supporting the refugees either on their arrival, or during their first year here. The expectation was that after that first year the refugees would be fully integrated into their local schools and communities, and that the adults would be in employment and thus able to provide for themselves”.

Okay so do local british people not pay taxes then? Yes they do so there local resources do go on housing and supporting these refugees don’t they?

Also how are they going to support themselves in employment in the worst recession/depression for 70 years, when british people are losing jobs left, right and centre? By taking more british people’s jobs?
.
She also stated, “As for the constant references to the Gateway Programme refugees being asylum seekers, we’re talking here about people who had fled the fighting in the Congo, who were living in refugee camps in Zaire (and in some cases who had been in those camps for as long as 10 years), and who had been accepted as refugees by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) while they were still in the camps: in other words prior to their arrival in Britain. They did not come here seeking asylum, because they’d already been granted it: it had already been acknowledged that they were unable to return to their own country of origin or settle in the country where they living at the time their refugee status was approved”.

Is it any wonder people are turning to the BNP when people are not just traversing half the globe to get to soft-touch Britain for the free housing, healthcare and benefits, but this loony Labour government (who certainly aren’t socialist) are bringing these people here, why are they not being supported in other African countries where they fit in with the culture and have more chance of returning to their homelands? Could it be loony labour’s wish to transform the demographics of Britain with no electoral mandate?

Isn’t it Fascism to impose these massive changes in this country’s population by importing millions of immigrants and expecting us to accept their cultures/religions whilst are own culture and religion are undermined and destroyed?

Where was our referendum on Mass immigration or multiculturism? I for one was quite happy to have my own country with my own culture and didn’t want to live in some Islamified/africanised hellhole!

Another point is how is this small island country going to house, feed or supply energy or water for all this huge population increase? Sheer Madness

The sickest thing is how a Labour government pretending to be for the working class people has connived to help Big Biusiness/Multinational corporations exploit british and foreigner alike by importing cheap labour to depress wages/conditions as the only people to benefit from this immigration invasion are the super-rich capitalists who exploit cheap labour, oh and of course all you marxist nation-wreckers out there!

Also why don’t you marxists go to the root cause of this wave of refugee/asylum-seekers – Immoral and unlawful Third World debt imposed by the World Bank/IMF and Global corporations exploiting these countries – read Michael Rowbotham’s The Grip of Death and you may learn of the evils Globalisation has brough and is bringing to our world!

Mark, this is just a few Africans who have seen deprivation and horrors you cannot imagine. It is not ‘mass immigration’ but rather 150 pathetic individuals, unable to live in their own country for fea of death.

It seems sincere efforts were made by all concerned not to push anyone to the back of housing queues, and indeed it seems that these asylum seekers are probably in sub-standard housing that nobody else has taken.

What is your problem with offering sanctuary to such people?

The BNP leaflet seems to me to be designed to stoke up anger with its exagerrations, and you seem to be trying to do the same thing.

107. Michael Treacy

Mark, this is just a few Africans who have seen deprivation and horrors you cannot imagine. It is not ‘mass immigration’ but rather 150 pathetic individuals, unable to live in their own country for fea of death.

It seems sincere efforts were made by all concerned not to push anyone to the back of housing queues, and indeed it seems that these asylum seekers are probably in sub-standard housing that nobody else has taken.

What is your problem with offering sanctuary to such people?

The BNP leaflet seems to me to be designed to stoke up anger with its exagerrations, and you seem to be trying to do the same thing.
———————————————————————————————————————-
There will always be war in Africa. They are a barbaric race and always have been. Even the left identify them as outstanding warriors. They damn well should be because they have had enough practice. Africans were one of the first races to enslave people and brainwash them into fighting for their en-slavers. They were the main suppliers to the transatlantic slave traders.

This is not just a ‘few’ Africans. Put your 150 into a national scale and you have tens of thousands. This is an invasion and it’s being promoted and defended by the left.

Most so-called refugees are young men and not the elderly people you would imagine. If my family were in danger I’d give my life to protect them. We had one case of a Congolese man demanding his wife and children let into the country. Now I would imagine if the Congo was such a hellhole you wouldn’t be able to wander to your local travel agent and buy tickets to get here. How the hell do they get past passport control.

I also assumed the Congo was a French/Belgium colony. Why don’t they apply to reside there? The answer is obvious! State benefits are far higher here. AND THEY DO GET FREE HIGH QUALITY HOUSING.

As I wrote before, I am *NOT* ‘of the left’.

You don’t really engage with any argument here, you don’t even read any argument here, you just regurgitate your BNP nonsense.

I have no problem with giving sanctuary to 150 Africans in Norfolk. It seems a pathetically small number, actually.

Immigration is a worldwide problem. Partly due to population numbers, partly due to climate change, partly due to finite resources, and until we think and act globally to solve these problems there is going to be more struggles and war over dwindling resources.

Of course I am not advocating unlimited immigration, but have no problem with humanitarian efforts like this one. What’s really wrong with it?

In reality Britian, a rich and fertile country, does not do as much as many other countries to help fellow human beings.

Michael Treacy, you are a doing a sterling job of looking like a right racist tit, keep up the good work and the next time I’m in Uppermill, I’ve pay you a visit and lecture you on how thick you are face to face.

All the breast!

“There will always be war in Africa. They are a barbaric race and always have been.”

This says all you need to know about the BNP. Irrational, blinkered, hate filled agenda coupled with a lack of knowledge and analytic ability and generally not being very bright.

I understand that the claim that some Africans kept slaves is true but that’s hardly a strong indicator of their barbarity considering the Great White Civilized Race joined in with the idea with gusto. If they are barbaric then so are we.

As for ‘Mark’, I wonder if this could be BNP Wunderkind Mark Collett?

Good spot Andy.

112. Michael Treacy

Michael Treacy, you are a doing a sterling job of looking like a right racist tit, keep up the good work and the next time I’m in Uppermill, I’ve pay you a visit and lecture you on how thick you are face to face.

I’d love to have a debate with you. I once met Peter Bell who was vising Failsworth with his Mexican son. We had a great afternoon debating and a splendid meal. We parted company in the hope race relations in Oldham might heal. It never happened and never will. I suggest we meet in the Granby. I understand they do an excellent meal.

I don’t think you’d appreciate Uppermill as much as Glodwick/Werneth etc. It’s too damn white for you. I used to live in Dobcross the next village. That too was ‘hideously’ white. If Mark is Mark Collett then you should be aware Mark and myself don’t really like each other that much and, as such, I don’t think he’d waste his time joining a debate with me.

If we do meet please make it as enjoyable as Mr Bell did.

I’m up in November but after the last chap skived out on me you’ll understand my reticence.

Until then!

Barbara you said,

Mark, this is just a few Africans who have seen deprivation and horrors you cannot imagine. It is not ‘mass immigration’ but rather 150 pathetic individuals, unable to live in their own country for fea of death.

It seems sincere efforts were made by all concerned not to push anyone to the back of housing queues, and indeed it seems that these asylum seekers are probably in sub-standard housing that nobody else has taken.

What is your problem with offering sanctuary to such people?

The BNP leaflet seems to me to be designed to stoke up anger with its exagerrations, and you seem to be trying to do the same thing.

———————————————————————————————————————-

Barbara, I have no problem with offering genuine refugees sanctuary, I do have a problem with my country being swamped by Mass Immigration from bogus asylum-seekers/illegal immigrants which is changing my country and undermining my culture without the British people’s consent!

It is not a case of just 150 refugees neither is it, it is a tidal wave of many hundreds of thousands of bogus asylum-seekers/illegal immigrants/refugees coming here or being brought here! Most of these people are just economic migrants and it is not these people I blame for wanting a better life in Britain, it is the political elite and especially New Labour who are encouraging, aiding and abetting this invasion!

The fact that New Labour are encouraging and aiding this invasion shows there utter contempt for the democratic wishes of the British people who have never wanted Mass Immigration, this is indeed Fascism, imposing their will on the british people whether we like it or not!

You say sincere efforts have been made not to push people to the back of the housing queue, this is completely untrue, obviously housing immigrants in private sector housing will put more pressure on available housing leading to longer social housing queues and higher house prices, these immigrants have also effectively jumped the housing queue as they have been housed before local people on the council house waiting list, which is very unfair!

Have you not heard of the Home Office Joint Tenancy Agreement which lays down exactly what these “asylum-seekers” are given, believe me they certainly aren’t housed in sub-standard accommodation, they are almost treated like royalty, see below:-

Detailed list of items for asylum seekers

So what doesn’t the Home Office want you to know? Take a look at Schedule 1 on page 14, and you can see for yourself:

This list of requirements for any property being used to house asylum seekers begins, reasonably enough, by insisting that it shall be fit for human habitation, and have adequate light. Let us ignore the fact that many hundreds of thousands of our own people are either homeless or live in houses which are “unfit for human habitation” because, according to central government and local councils, there “isn’t enough money to deal with all the problems.”

By the time we get to Section 1.3, the secret Agreement begins to lay out requirements which are beyond the reach not just of a relatively small number of the homeless or desperately poor:

“… all meters shall be of the quarterly type, the use of card or key meters shall not be allowed.”

Isn’t that nice? If you and your family fall into arrears on your utility bills, particularly electricity, you have to agree to the installation of a card meter set at such a rate that it gobbles up money. British families with children can’t be officially cut off – but if they run out of meter credit, their lights and heating go off anyway and they have to go to bed at dusk in the winter to try to keep warm. Such hardships are unacceptable, however, when it comes to asylum seekers.

Section 1.7 insists that “The Property shall have a full and safe central heating system installed. Paraffin or bottled gas fed heating systems shall not be used.” Perish the thought! Such devices are fine for British pensioners and young families shivering on the poverty line, but far too smelly, inconvenient and dangerous for the liberal elite’s favourites.

New electrical goods

After laying down requirements on issues such as fire safety, the Schedule reaches Point 10: “All electrical appliances in the Property shall be either new or, if second hand, shall be supplied complete with a twelve month guarantee.” Well, I don’t know about you, but when my wife and I got married and set up home, we had to get our first electric cooker and heaters from an auction, completely without any guarantee at all. And, of course, ordinary British youngsters moving into places of their own still face the same choice between paying through the nose for new equipment or going without guarantees.

Pages 15 and 16 go on to provide a long list of the things needed in the kitchen, living room, bedrooms and bathroom of each asylum property. As you’re probably expecting by now, this features everything from chip pans to teaspoons, from an easy chair for each bed space to a Boots first aid kit.

The long ‘General’ list in Section 1.13 even proves that the popular observation about new net curtains showing that asylum seekers are moving in is true, since landlords are ordered to provide “net & drawable curtains to all living rooms and bedrooms.” They get everything, in fact, including the kitchen sink.

Free colour TV and licence paid!

One item does, however, stand out:

“For Each Living/Dining Room

1 new twenty inch screen colour television complete with licence which shall be renewed at each annual anniversary of the Start Date throughout the Term.”

Native Brits, of course, have to wait until they are 75 to get a free TV licence, and non-payment of this iniquitous tax is the biggest single ‘crime’ that puts British women in prison.

Many of those women can’t afford a TV licence because they are struggling to bring up young families on pitifully low incomes. As a result, they are also often unable to afford proper child safety equipment. No wonder, then, that the Home Office bureaucrats being so generous with our tax money wanted to keep Section 1.20 secret:

“Where there are to be children living in the Property, the Property shall include:

?Adequate cot and highchair facilities;
?Appropriate sterilisation equipment;
?Child safety gates on all stairways;
?Childproof resistant devices or casement stays on all windows;
?Appropriate play areas both inside and outside the Property.”
Another thing that ordinary families on average incomes find a big problem is the occasional cost of major repairs. Asylum seekers have no such worries. Under this Agreement, the Landlord is bound to do all repairs within seven days, and to provide an emergency repair service (Section 1.23) “where a threat to health and safety is apparent.” The rest of us have to turn to Yellow Pages or pay for call out insurance, but it would be unfair to expect asylum seekers to do the same, wouldn’t it?

Similarly favourable treatment is also specified in the Letting Provisions, Section (f) of which commits the Landlord “to redecorate all parts of the Property in the third year of the Term.” The rest of us may have to fork out down at “Do It All”, but not the special guests.

Perhaps most ludicrous of all, however, is the next section (g) of the Letting Provisions, whereby the Landlord agrees: “To have the exterior of all windows of the Property cleaned once every twelve weeks.” I kid you not, it’s there on page 7. What would George Formby have had to say about it?

Who pays?

So what do all these modcons and services cost the lucky occupants of such premises? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. When various bleeding heart liberals tell us how asylum seekers only get basic income support payments, they don’t tell us about the Letting Provisions on page 4 of the Home Office’s Revised Tenancy Agreement, do they? Yet these show that not only do asylum seekers get their TV licences paid for them, we also pick up the tab for their rent, water rates, gas, and electricity bills.

Surely, you must think, these people must want to spend night after night on the phone to all their friends and family back home, telling them all about the wonders of Soft Touch Britain? A lot of their pocket money must go on paying the phone bill? No, as you probably guessed, they don’t have to pay a penny. Section 1 ((b) of the Letting Provisions sets out the fact that the Tenant Company (funded by the taxpayer) agrees to pick up the phone bill for every single property provided by the Landlord in question to asylum seekers.

Don’t forget that every single council or housing association in this land which is housing asylum seekers has signed this document. Thousands of councillors in the ruling party in Labour, LibDem and Tory councils alike have either read this document or studiously avoided seeing it so they didn’t have to.

It only took one BNP supporter in one council to leak this insulting and undemocratic document to us. By contrast, we will never know how many Lib-Lab-Con merchants have seen this Agreement since it first started being used in 2001, but not a single one of them has had the guts to put the interests of democracy and their constituents before asylum seekers and the Home Office.

As you can now see the BNP leaflet is correct in its outline of the TRUTH, the only people stoking up anger and resentment certainly isn’t myself or the BNP, it is this Labour government and people like you who are trying to change the demographics of this country, impose multiculturism and turn us into second class citizens in our own country!

Andy the only people with a hate-filled, irrational, blinkered agenda are far-left Labour cranks who wish to destroy the indigenous british people and culture by imposing Mass Immigration and Multiculturism, and turning us into second-class citizens!

If anyone is not very bright it is the LibLabConners, and marxist UAF Nu-Labour stooges, who obviously haven’t analysed Islam, Sharia Law or the many ethnic civil wars in the world to see the whole lot of trouble they are storing up and the grave danger they have put this country in!

Africans from the warlike tribes of central africa sold their captives from conquest into slavery instead of executing them, so you could say whites saved their lives. However, this trade in slaves was barbaric but it could only take place because Africans were prepared to sell their brothers into slavery! The far worse slave trade which was far longer and far more barbaric was the Arab slave trade, yet we don’t hear much about this do we?

Of course there was also the Barbary slave-traders of North Africa who enslaved millions of white Europeans, many from Britain over several hundred years, this isn’t mentioned much either is it?

By the way I am certainly not Mark Collett, I am an ex-Labour supporter who is absolutely disgusted with the treason of this party, and have realised that only the BNP look-out for British people’s interests!

If you agree that Britain should show compassion to some asylum seekers, or refugees from disasters elsewhere, then why nit-pick about their housing and heating and allowances?

Either we offer compassion to fellow human beings or we don’t.

In the article that opens this thread Cath says she worked with asylum seekers, and that the BNP leaflet was full of lies.

The choice anyone has to make is whether to believe a person who has worked on the ground here in Norwich, or to believe someone miles from here who is a supporter of the racist BNP.

I believe Cath.

Can the bigots here not now bugger off rather than bring back a dead thread?

In general I agree with #120, but …
Mark would probably like us to re-read the Zinovoev letter and “The protocols of the elders of Zion” and the false accusations against Dreyfus and ….
He claims there is a secret set of instructions from the Home Office that requires higher standards for immigrants than natives – well that doesn’t match with what actually happened. The biggest group of Kurdish refugees was housed in tower blocks in Castlemilk when so many of the original residents, who had been rehoused there from the Gorbals, moved out and Glasgow could not find any natives to move in. They were dispersed into other flats around Glasgow that were left empty by locals when the tower blocks were dynamited.
Oh yes, the refugees are being favoured by taking flats turned down by folk
from the Gorbals?!
I should not like Michael to think I am bullying Mark but I want something better than an alleged “leak” from a BNP activist to justify claims that UK nationals are being oppressed by diversion of assets from citizens with votes to non-citizens without votes: I thoroughly dislike Alastair Campbell but I don’t think that he is stupid and you sound like a spoilt brat.
The regulations about meters are designed to stop landlords exploiting the ignorance of tenants by creaming off a differential between the price paid to the utility company and that paid by the tenant. It doesn’t cost any decent person a penny – itjust prevents unjust exploitation. A native family can read the papers or the massive advertising by the utility companies – a new immigrant may not do so.
“Well, I don’t know about you, but when my wife and I got married and set up home, we had to get our first electric cooker and heaters from an auction, completely without any guarantee at all.” I don’t recall any guarantees on any electrical equipment when I was young, so that isn’t a distinction between immigrants and natives but between then and now. When I moved into my flat, where my wife joined me after we got married, there were no guarantees on anything. I had to replace lightbulbs, wash the floor, weed the window-box, clean my connection to the block’s waste-disposal system, even vacuum the carpets – oh, how terrible!!
Quite frankly I do not believe your claims because New Labour don’t like exposing themselves to criticism BUT if they were true I should have no objection – those who are vulnerable deserve more protection than people like me who can stick up for ourselves.

119. Michael Treacy

119. comment by
Barbara Suzuki

If you agree that Britain should show compassion to some asylum seekers, or refugees from disasters elsewhere, then why nit-pick about their housing and heating and allowances?

Either we offer compassion to fellow human beings or we don’t.

In the article that opens this thread Cath says she worked with asylum seekers, and that the BNP leaflet was full of lies.

The choice anyone has to make is whether to believe a person who has worked on the ground here in Norwich, or to believe someone miles from here who is a supporter of the racist BNP.

I believe Cath.

Barbara.

This is not nick-picking. This is the reason migrants want to come here. CATH works with asylum seekers. The emphasis is WORKS. She gets paid to look after them and should they no longer be allowed to stay she’d be out of work. I can imagine she makes an affordable existence out of their being here but, like I suspect many of you liberals, doesn’t have them on her doorstep. I actually agree with the 1951 UN Refugee Convention which states…..

“Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.”

BUT the act also states Anyone wishing to claim refugee status should make such a claim at the NEAREST safe country.

Surely this means Great Britain should, because of this legal obligation, accept people from Eire, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Holland, Belgium and France. NOT Somalia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or any such like place!

120. comment by
Daniel Hoffmann-Gill
Can the bigots here not now bugger off rather than bring back a dead thread?

I knew about the Home Office Joint Tenancy Agreement and I was going to mention it in our future discussion. What amazes me is you want this thread to end because you find Mark’s disclosure ‘uncomfortable’. Surely this new disclosure should open a new idea of thought for liberals. Or are you as blinkered as I presumed you might be?

Wrong, again, it’s more about this thread was dead and all it ends up being is a home to racist nonsense spouted by the likes of you.

Although you are strangely quiet on how badly the BNP did in Norwich?

Daniel,
their perform

Daniel,
their performance in Norwich is almost irrelevant – it’s their continual spouting lies that is the subject

123. Michael Treacy

John. Which parts of this debate are we lying about?

Either we accept a moral obligation to give sanctuary to a few asylum seekers from desperate circumstances each year, or we reject that moral obligation.

You seem to be accepting the principle, but then at the same time, rejecting it.

That doesn’t make much sense to me.

Either I believe your theories of some sort of governmental secret conspiracy to give more to asylum seekers than others, or I don’t.

I don’t.

I suppose we have reached impasse.

It’s always an impasse because the racists do not enter a debate with an open mind they enter it with the aim of perpetuating their myths at all costs.

Barbara said,

If you agree that Britain should show compassion to some asylum seekers, or refugees from disasters elsewhere, then why nit-pick about their housing and heating and allowances?

Either we offer compassion to fellow human beings or we don’t.

In the article that opens this thread Cath says she worked with asylum seekers, and that the BNP leaflet was full of lies.

The choice anyone has to make is whether to believe a person who has worked on the ground here in Norwich, or to believe someone miles from here who is a supporter of the racist BNP.

I believe Cath.
———————————————————————————————————————-

I am probably wasting my time but here goes!

The problem is many, indeed most of the immigrants coming here are not worthy of our compassion, these people who cross half the world to come here are not asylum-seekers/refugees they are infact illegal, economic immigrants. Why do they pass through France (which is a safe European democracy last time I looked), because they view Britain as a land of Milk and Honey, as loony labour bend over backwards for them, giving them far more than their own people, which is a disgrace!

I am certainly not nit-picking over their housing and heating allowances, etc, I think it is an absolute disgrace that these people, unfortunate or not are given all this help when many of our own people are in poverty and given no or very little support, for example we have many of our pensioners living in abject poverty, many homeless or people living in cramped and poor conditions, elderly having to sell their homes to pay for care homes, millions unemployed, millions on housing lists, many patients told they cannot have drugs on the NHS for life-threatening conditions such as cancer because of the cost!

Cath working with asylum-seekers gives her a vested interest in this asylum fraud continuing then doesn’t it, so no impartial view from her do you not agree?

Also the Home Office Joint Tenancy Agreement is an official government document now exposed and out in the public domain, and details the way our taxpayer’s money is abused in catering for these bogus asylum-seekers in stark contrast to the way Labour treats its own people!

The only party full of lies is Nu-Labour and its sychophants.

As for racism, it is not racist to look after your own people as that is what every other ethnic-minority group in this country is doing, funded by Nu-Labour.

Who are the Black police association, muslim police association, Operation blackvote, etc looking after its certainly not white british people yet these organizations are all funded and supported by New Labour. Also New Labour have made it legal to discriminate in favour of ethnics over white men in employment, so who is the REAL RACIST party!

New Labour and supporters such as yourself are the REAL RACISTS!

hoffman-gill said,

Can the bigots here not now bugger off rather than bring back a dead thread?
———————————————————————————————————————-

If you think it’s a dead thread and obviously doesn’t interest you anymore then why have you posted on it then dumbo? Do you just not like having your Far-Left lies torn apart?

For the record if you refer to me, I am no bigot just a realist, and somebody who can see the destruction of his country and culture and doesn’t like it. It is people like you who are the real bigots who try and impose your warped world view of a multicultural Shangri-La onto everyone else!

Bradley and Mark, you’re daft racists and as I said elsewhere, “It’s always an impasse because the racists do not enter a debate with an open mind they enter it with the aim of perpetuating their myths at all costs.”

a different john said,

He claims there is a secret set of instructions from the Home Office that requires higher standards for immigrants than natives – well that doesn’t match with what actually happened.

———————————————————————————————————————-

It’s not secret anymore the Home Office Joint Tenbancy Agreement has been exposed and it does give much higher standards of support for immigrants, can you not read?

As for a sppoilt brat that would sum you up pratt. You are obviously a racist Nu-Labour supporting toadie who would rather give your taxes to help the world and his wife, rather than some of our own poverty-stricken people, disgusting!

Mark,
– you don’t read the thread or you don’t grasp what people are telling you (for the third time, I am not a New Labour supporter)
– you consistently ignore the subject of the thread and start talking is such huge generalities that nobody can answer you
– you don’t trust Cath who has actually worked with these asylum seekers, but you expect others to trust you
– you parrot the BNP line without any regard for real facts and figures
– if someone makes a good point against your arguments you ignore it and repeat yourself
– your racism is apparent and discredits all you write in any case
What are you trying to achieve here? I don’t think that you really want to debate, you just want the last word.
Fine by me. Everyone knows what you are by now.

Daniel @ 134
They are obviously not interested in debate.

These BNP supporters make me sad. They deliberately cut themselves off from other people, and take pride in mutilating their own potential.

They boast about their negativity without seeing their own loss.

Well said Barbara, it is common in threads like these for these racist, bigoted types to just join in and chip in with their prejudice without taking on board any of the content and using the Internet as a home for their ignorance.

133. Michael Treacy

126. comment by
Michael Treacy

John. Which parts of this debate are we lying about?

I’m still waiting for a reply!
————————————————————————————————————————–

132. comment by
Mark

I believe Marks post deserves an answer. It’s no good you liberals just saying, “You BNP lot are just racist etc.” You sound like the kid who takes his bat and ball home because someone had the audacity to bowl him out.

Michael,

It is not possible to debate immigration with a racist BNP supporter.

The debate simply ends.

Indeed.

Michael,
sorry for delay – I was busy
Let’s start with the lies in the original leaflet
1) Locals pushed to the back of the housing queue – not true since none of the refugees were placed in “Social Housing” for which the loccals are queueing
2) Cost to local inhabitants – none or, if you include contribution via income tax too small to measure as Norwich pays less than 0.1% of total tax on personal or corporate incomes
3) Repeatedly equating refugees with economic migrants
4) “Our taxes” are being spent on immigrants – research has shown that immigrants in aggregate pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits
5) Indigenous people will be outnumbered in 40-50 years – not possible even if the entire population of Poland came over here
6) “the Spanish aren’t a race”
7) Claiming 150 refugees are mass immigration
8) That housing 30 or 40 families in empty properties will upset the local housing market and create a scarcity, pushing up prices – a quick look on Google gives me several letting agents, the first of which claims to have 3285 properties to let in and around Norwich.
9) That all the refugees are coming to Britain – as part of an international agreement we are taking a very small percentage, most have gone to other African countries
10) The settling of the 150 in Norwich in December 2006 was during the worst recession/depression in 70 years
11) “Most so-called refugees are young men” not so – most workers coming here from eastern europe are young men, but most refugees are women and children – quite often without the young men who have been killed
12) Favourable treatment for asylum-seekers – they are still getting less favourable treatment than anyone on income-related benefits that incidentally covers all housing costs. There is one point to prevent unscrupulous landlords ripping them off over gas and electricity meters but that doesn’t cost the taxpayer a penny; it is not favourable treatment to require the landlord to make repairs as that is actually a legal requirement for all landlords of residential property with weekly tenancies and that again doesn’t cost the taxpayer a penny
13) “CATH works with asylum seekers. The emphasis is WORKS. She gets paid to look after them and should they no longer be allowed to stay she’d be out of work.” No, she represented Norfolk Library and Information Service on the committee. She’d only be out of work if Norfolk stopped reading books
14) Perhaps most ludicrous of all, however, is the next section (g) of the Letting Provisions, whereby the Landlord agrees: “To have the exterior of all windows of the Property cleaned once every twelve weeks.” I kid you not, it’s there on page 7. What would George Formby have had to say about it?”
George Formby wasn’t a window-cleaner but when he was young the standard frequency for cleaning windows was once every two weeks. He would probably have been apalled at such a low standard

It would take too long to explain why I consider half-a-dozen other statements to be false so I will end this post with
15) “As for a sppoilt brat that would sum you up pratt. You are obviously a racist Nu-Labour supporting toadie who would rather give your taxes to help the world and his wife, rather than some of our own poverty-stricken people, disgusting!”
As I am not a spoilt brat, nor racist, nor have I ever supported New Labour, nor am I a toadie, and I do use Gift Aid to divert some of my income from tax to support some of the poorest people in Britain, that makes five lies in one semi-coherent rant.

137. Michael Treacy

John I’ll try to address your reply and, although I can’t speak for Norwich, the north has massive problems with immigration.

1) Locals pushed to the back of the housing queue – not true since none of the refugees were placed in “Social Housing” for which the loccals are queueing

It’s true. Why do you think local government are now ruing the day they signed up for this colonisation of many areas? Although there is a shortage of government housing stock many of the ones available are offered to immigrants.

2) Cost to local inhabitants – none or, if you include contribution via income tax too small to measure as Norwich pays less than 0.1% of total tax on personal or corporate incomes

And who pays this tax both presently and in the past. British people who have built this country and supplied some of the greatest infrastructure the world has ever seen.

3) Repeatedly equating refugees with economic migrants

I’ve already stated I don’t believe anyone should pass through safe countries to come here. I believe that by doing so they have broken international rules making them illegal.

4) “Our taxes” are being spent on immigrants – research has shown that immigrants in aggregate pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits

That depends on two factors. Firstly who organised this research? If it’s the government, the Joseph Roundtree trust or any such organisation you can promise yourself the figures are managed, massaged or downright lies. One interesting point is the Russian billionaire and Chealsea FC owner, Roman Abramovich, is considered a migrant and as such his wealth is included in the official figures. His tax payments are used to shore up the very negative contributions of the other immigrants.

If, as you suggest, immigrants pay more then answer this. Why are most ethnic communities usually poverty areas. In Oldham 5 of the 6 poorest areas are ethnic minority areas. In fact they are total shit holes. These deprivation lists are constructed by various benefit agency’s. They receive their information from their own records-which areas are claiming the most in benefits! So either all immigrants are doctors or brain surgeons or the are on the dole or receiving some kind of benefit (child benefit is not included).

5) Indigenous people will be outnumbered in 40-50 years – not possible even if the entire population of Poland came over here

In 1975 just 1% of the population was from an ethnic minority back ground. The figure is now over 12% and rising fast. This doesn’t include the million or so who are in hiding.

6) “the Spanish aren’t a race”

No country can be a race save the Inuits. I understand they make their own borders and consider them to be flexible. I might be wrong but I’m certain I read that sometime ago.

7) Claiming 150 refugees are mass immigration

Of course it is! If 40 caravans of travelers arrived in your village would the local papers not scream as much? 150 might not seem many but stick a couple of families in your village and sit back and watch how fast the changes happen.

8) That housing 30 or 40 families in empty properties will upset the local housing market and create a scarcity, pushing up prices – a quick look on Google gives me several letting agents, the first of which claims to have 3285 properties to let in and around Norwich.

What it will do is create white flight. People leave the area creating a hell of a lot of empty properties. These properties become a magnet for vandals are then boarded up. The area eventually looks like Beirut. I’ve seen this happen with my own eyes countless times
.
9) That all the refugees are coming to Britain – as part of an international agreement we are taking a very small percentage, most have gone to other African countries

None should be here. I’ve already explained why.

11) “Most so-called refugees are young men” not so – most workers coming here from eastern europe are young men, but most refugees are women and children – quite often without the young men who have been killed

Not around here they aren’t. They’re fit young men who should pick up arms and fight for their families.

12) Favourable treatment for asylum-seekers – they are still getting less favourable treatment than anyone on income-related benefits that incidentally covers all housing costs. There is one point to prevent unscrupulous landlords ripping them off over gas and electricity meters but that doesn’t cost the taxpayer a penny; it is not favourable treatment to require the landlord to make repairs as that is actually a legal requirement for all landlords of residential property with weekly tenancies and that again doesn’t cost the taxpayer a penny

Unless the landlord is receiving a decent rent he won’t let the property. So don’t try to tell me it costs next to sod all.

Michael,

Let’s stick to the topic of the BNP lies in the leaflets distributed in Norwich North. You are ignoring the specific responses you have received.

Do you now understand that the BNP leaflets did indeed contain lies?

Oh dear, Treacy’s point by point is deluded at best, I mean all that 150 is a lot and out right denial of the facts presented to him.

Ouch.

140. Old Stoat

Have a string of comments and contributions flown off into the Fourth Dimension?

The entire Suzuki – Stoat debate may have been lost forever!

141. Michael Treacy

I’ve met 100s of people who have suffered under this multi-cultural hell hole Britain has become. I’ve spoken to people who have been threatened or attacked so they would leave their homes. As soon as they do Oldham council refused to rehouse them stating the left of their own accord.

One family was deemed to have abandoned their home after Muslims threw a petrol bomb through their window. I got them rehoused after threatening to stage a sit down in Oldham’s civic centre. For my actions I was banned from the Civic-until I told the AFRICAN security guard to get out of my way so I could pay my council tax.

I met one woman who was raped and went to the police to make a complaint. her attacker was a well known Muslim drug dealer. Originally the police took her complaint seriously but he was never arrested and questioned. After a short while the police decided to let the matter drop.

I met a young man who was macheted by 4 Muslims and because of his extensive injuries he can longer work as a tiler. Instead he works in a supermarket earning half as much as he was.

I met a relative of Gavin Hopley who was attacked by 12 TWELVE Muslims after he walked into their area after getting lost. He was beaten and as he lay dying the bastards who attacked him robbed him of his watch and gold chain. His family were persuaded by the police to issue a statement that they didn’t believe Gavin was racially attacked. No one was found guilty of his murder although one of the Muslims received 21 months imprisonment for the theft.

I met one young lad who was mown down by another gang of….wait for it….MUSLIMS. His back still has the tyre imprint after 3 years.

I’m great friends with a relative of Mark Clayton who as attacked whilst walking home by 12 (that magic number) asylum seekers. After being stabbed in the leg he was left for dead. He lost half his blood and only God knows how he survived.

Do you remember Walter Chamberlain? He was the old chap who was beaten with his own metal flask whilst walking home after watching a game of rugby league. His face was smashed including his cheek bones and eye sockets. I signed one of his relatives to the BNP after the police visited the family home and persuaded the family to state it wasn’t racist. Sound familiar?

I’ve seen so much wanton violence against white people but it’s all going to be a new experience for you liberals. Some of you might be elderly and you won’t see the horrors that will unfold in future years. BUT your great-grandchildren will. And if there is an afterlife I hope you look down and see the carnage you descendants will endure.

Old Stoat:

You got deleted. Ha.

Treacy:

You’re sounding more desperate at this goes on, no one here has an interest in your deluded world view or your politics, trawl for BNP voters elsewhere, like Lees perhaps?

Ha indeed. Even without his nonsensical ramblings this thread serves as a wonderful reminder of just how bonkers and deluded the BNP really are.

I’ll direct people here in future for a laff/groan.

Yes, it’s a vulgar bloody shambles of impotent anger and rage.

Bless the daft racists.

145. Michael Treacy

150. comment by
Daniel Hoffmann-Gill

Yes, it’s a vulgar bloody shambles of impotent anger and rage.

Bless the daft racists.
————————————————————————————————————————-
When we meet for our debate I’ll take us to Glodwick and drop you off smack bang in the middle.

There you can celebrate your wonderful diversity whilst you get the biggest kicking off your life. I’ll stand back and watch you receive Muslim hospitality. Glodwick style. Why don’t you bring Jamie, John and Barbara along. You’ll have a great time 😉

I suspect you’ll cry off just as other liberals have. But make no mistake I will meet you in Uppermill and I’ll show you proof that everything I’ve written is the truth.

I’ve been to Oldham plenty Treacy, all over the area and beyond, lived there on and off for 3 months at the start of the year, never mind spells of living their previous and the pciture you paint is a picture infused by your bigotry, simple as that. Your own narrow minded prejudice and ignorance fills every word you type.

Fatty:

You’re just the same old troll with a different handle, bugger off you daft racist.

And what has this to do with the lies told in the BNP leaflet in Norwich North regarding the 150 immigrants given asylum here?

If the BNP case is so strong and worthy, why does the BNP have to lie?

For example, why not a few correct facts and figures on this so-called ‘mass immigration’ into Norwich North (because Norwich North is the topic of this thread)?

Why not the statistics on old people who have died in Norwich North because their pensions were too little?

Why does the BNP leaflet tell lies?


Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. The Green Party

    RT @libcon The BNP’s lies in Norwich North: http://bit.ly/hYvTk

  2. Twin Lizard

    RT @libcon: Article: The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/hYvTk

  3. Alcohol-based Hand Gel

    RT @libcon Liberal Conspiracy » The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/hYvTk

  4. The Beerhunter

    RT @libcon The BNP’s lies in Norwich North: http://bit.ly/hYvTk (Pls retweet! Get the word out!)

  5. Paranormal Guru

    Liberal Conspiracy » The BNP’s lies in Norwich North: About the author: Cath Elliott is a regular contributo.. http://bit.ly/jY2aG

  6. David Block

    Liberal Conspiracy » The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/45KxX5

  7. Sim-O

    Lib Con: BNP Lies in Norwich North http://is.gd/1HK2h #theBNParetwats

  8. The Green Party

    RT @libcon The BNP’s lies in Norwich North: http://bit.ly/hYvTk

  9. Twin Lizard

    RT @libcon: Article: The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/hYvTk

  10. Alcohol-based Hand Gel

    RT @libcon Liberal Conspiracy » The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/hYvTk

  11. The Beerhunter

    RT @libcon The BNP’s lies in Norwich North: http://bit.ly/hYvTk (Pls retweet! Get the word out!)

  12. Paranormal Guru

    Liberal Conspiracy » The BNP’s lies in Norwich North: About the author: Cath Elliott is a regular contributo.. http://bit.ly/jY2aG

  13. David Block

    Liberal Conspiracy » The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/45KxX5

  14. Sim-O

    Lib Con: BNP Lies in Norwich North http://is.gd/1HK2h #theBNParetwats

  15. links for 2009-07-22 « Embololalia

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  18. Noxi

    RT @CathElliott Liberal Conspiracy >> The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://ow.ly/hYk9

  19. Noxi

    RT @CathElliott Liberal Conspiracy >> The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://ow.ly/hYk9

  20. Tim Ireland

    RTish @CathElliott: The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/eF3M0

  21. Simon HB

    RT @bloggerheads RTish @CathElliott: The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/eF3M0

  22. Tim Ireland

    RTish @CathElliott: The BNP’s lies in Norwich North http://bit.ly/eF3M0

  23. But where will they send me? « Too Much To Say For Myself

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