seeing kids as young as 13 drinking beers, lighting up joints, posing with enough knives & firearms to overthrow the city council, and filming tributes to slain friends.

2.5 of these things are not like the other 1.5 of these things. I know plenty of well-adjusted adults from a wide range of social backgrounds who, if mobile phone cameras had been in circulation in 1992, would’ve been filmed drinking beers, lighting up joints, and dicking about with knives…

@1,

Indeed.

While I really do see that there are significant issues up and down the country that need to be addressed that article does seem to be quite pants. It doesn’t properly look at the wider context of the rest of the city while making sweeping generalisations about it (and the rest of the county). I mean how can a piece about gun crime in Sheffield written this month mention Burngreave but not Broomhall? It also manages to mix drama and anti-drama in the same piece with “oh noes we should fears this terror” on one hand and “these gangs are small and localised on the other”. Perhaps Mark should stick to writing about helicopters in Afghanistan.

Just noticed this blog – what a fine piece, thanks Mr Robertson.

So what are your practical suggestions?
How do you make the streets safer without some form of “crackdown”?

“Twelve months after the start of Operation Blunt 2, police in the capital have searched 287,898 people, arrested 10,266 and seized 5,480 knives.

Police figures showed that, in the first four months of this year, the number of knife offences in London fell by 11.5 per cent as the number of victims of youth violence fell by 10 per cent.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6312137.ece

Sorry – I’d messed up the timings on this blog. It was meant to go up in the morning, but I’d changed the timings to yesterday morning, so it ended up being buried further down the page. Now somewhat rectified.

I think this situation certainly needs exposure but I’m erring on the side of John B, in that not only do we over play the levels of dis-affected youth, which are confused with young people being young but sweeping and dangerous generalisations are made about the extent of the problem.

Also, this kind of stuff is my home patch in the sense that I spend a great deal of time working with hard to help young people, spend a lot of time doing street work, out in these kinds of neighbourhoods.

In reality, nothing much has changed, my generation (late 80s, early 90s) had weapons and attitude and my own father, of the early 50s generation, carried weapons and engaged in gang activities as I did.

I mean, you can try and strip kids of weapons but I think the greater issue is finding balance between things that young people get up to in the process of self-definition and activites that reflect hopeless based on their personal situation.

Agree with 1 and 2. Let’s not get on that bandwagon. There’s nothing morally repugnant or particularly unusual about under-age drinking, smoking (anything) or owning a knife. It’s what happens next and/or as a result that’s important.

To the main point though, the approach you hint at – engaging with the territory problem and trying to help people open up territories they feel are closed to them – is a good one.

I’ve had strange conversations with well-meaning people working in this area who nonetheless refuse to see gang culture as a valid form of societal cohesion – because that’s what it is, to the people who built it. They needed somewhere to belong, with rules and conventions, just like everybody else. The current approach is all about trying to pretend their structure doesn’t exist, using words like “chaos”, “lawless”, “breakdown”, “feral” etc to describe both areas and behaviour. If it really was that chaotic and feral I suspect we’d have had rather more success in tackling it with hard-arse policing. It’s precisely that the rules structure is so firm and sophisticated that’s the problem.

Alix has it down with the bandwagon term.

Can I also flag that being in a gang is exciting, the idea that you have turf and enemy gangs, in reality a lot of it is horseshit but good fun nevertheless.

Can I also flag the demise of youth clubs and youth workers due to government cuts, I mean youth clubs were a designated place to fight but the youth workers could tell the difference between gang wars and letting off steam.

@8 – I must have missed the “hard-arse” policing.
When did that begin?

@10: with all the tedious over the top policing in response to public hysteria and the ensueing demonisation of young people.

Little do people seem to know that such things only make acts of rebellion even more exciting.

The Observer story on sunday indicated that these kids are *not* boxed-in to gangland areas at all.

It stated that the postcode gangs actually interact and hang around outside the same barbers for much of the time, but then things go off and escalate out of control at an incredibly rapid pace.

The impression I got was that this is *not* turf-war gang-territory activity, but something far more mundane and less formalised.

Which makes your article about these kids being boxed-in and denied access to services, with their gang turf becoming their whole world, seem rather more down to speculation than what other media outlets are reporting to be the facts.

Cjcjc, the classic example is probably Jacqui Smith’s public sanction for harrassment of known troublemakers last year – she was encouraging the police to follow repeat offenders round, surveille their houses, search them as often as possible etc. Funny, we never did hear how that panned out, did we?

It’s not necessarily the police’s fault, mind. A lot of them can see perfectly well what a pointless cycle they’re caught in, but they have to make their targets like everybody else.

@13 I agree that sounds a bit silly, but the increased stopping and searching seems to be working (eg link @5)

NB surveille is not a verb?

“youth clubs were a designated place to fight”

Lol. This is actually a very good idea. Several police/community groups in London have had a lot of success with boxing clubs as you’ll probably know.

I take it back – surveille may be a verb – but it’s a bloody ugly one…

According to dictionary.com, it’s a back-construction from surveillance first recorded in the 1960s-1970s. I spelt it wrong though. It loses the final “le” unless forming the past tense.

It’s really just the same word as the much older and more anglicized “survey”, I guess, but it has come to have a particular modern meaning that “survey” doesn’t quite cover. I rather like useful, upstart little words.

Alix: yes boxing works well, steam has to be let out and bit of rough and tumble if controlled well is all good.

I do a lot of rough play with boys in Primary Schools, it not only helps them get over male touch and thus cuts down on homophobia is also teaches values of fair play and focused agressions to achieve mutually agreed aims.

I don’t get it. You want to get kids out of these boxed in post codes and you want them to go out and access other areas. Fine. But HOW?

@20: well some us here don’t buy the boxed in premise, that is only how a few young people feel.

Those that are boxed in so to pseak, the best and only way is to utilise youth lubs and youth workers to break down boundaries.

Thanks for the comments, folks

cjcjc,

So what are your practical suggestions?
How do you make the streets safer without some form of “crackdown”?

You, sir, have just spotted the missing sentence. I could’ve sworn there was another bit that needed putting in, but thought I was just being neurotic. Obviously, the police have a role to play in making these places safer; what I meant to refer to was the handing out of stiffer sentences through the courts for posession, which I don’t think would have much of an impact at all.

Alix,

To be honest, I wasn’t aware I was on a bandwagon, nor am I sure where that bandwagon leads. I’m hardly shocked at seeing 13 year old kids doing the kind of things described, and nor do I think it’s inevitable that these same kids are heading straight for delinquency, prison & a lifetime in either crime or unemployment. However, I do think that for those people trying their best to raise aspirations & improve education among kids in inner cities, gang culture makes life difficult for them, in the same way as plain old poverty can, or coming from a dysfunctional family. It’s just one part of a rather big conversation, but just acknowledging that there is a problem isn’t to jump on a bandwagon, I don’t think.

Daniel,

I think this situation certainly needs exposure but I’m erring on the side of John B, in that not only do we over play the levels of dis-affected youth, which are confused with young people being young but sweeping and dangerous generalisations are made about the extent of the problem.

.

Well, my intention certainly wasn’t to overstate the problem; just in the Observer piece I linked to, the police talk about how the ‘hard core’ gang population in the city is actually incredible small. But like you, I spend a fair amount of time (well, spent – it’s the holidays) working with some difficult kids, and it can be hard enough just overcoming the emotional/behavioural problems they’re carrying without also having to contend with the added stresses/stimuli associated with gang membership. If nothing else, it doesn’t make learning any easier

Paul,

The Observer story on sunday indicated that these kids are *not* boxed-in to gangland areas at all.

It stated that the postcode gangs actually interact and hang around outside the same barbers for much of the time, but then things go off and escalate out of control at an incredibly rapid pace.

The impression I got was that this is *not* turf-war gang-territory activity, but something far more mundane and less formalised.

Which makes your article about these kids being boxed-in and denied access to services, with their gang turf becoming their whole world, seem rather more down to speculation than what other media outlets are reporting to be the facts.

Rubbish. I used the article about the situation in Sheffield as a way in to talking about that JRF report, which I’m pretty sure doesn’t mention the city at all. The situation is going to be different in every city in the country, but the Rowntree Foundation’s research found ‘territorality’ a feature of many of these places.

I do a lot of rough play with boys in Primary Schools, it not only helps them get over male touch and thus cuts down on homophobia

Sorry, Daniel, I need an explanation of this.

Have to say it had better be a good one.

@23:

Your doubt and agression of doubt is a little annoying, I’m not sure if you have 16 years experience of working with young people and children and have been through numerous Enchanced CRB checks or extended family checks due to my mother fostering but I’d ease up.

To explain, rough play is the kind of stuff that kids did ages ago but has fallen out of favour in modern times due to increased levels of parental concern about kids getting hurt and not letting children play out and the increased culture of schools facing legal action for injuries as well as a real cutting down on PE in the time table to make way for assessed tasks.

I do the work with Year 5 upwards and it involves activites like Medusa’s Raft and many others that encourage the boys to use their bodies with controlled agression and a sense of fair play to be the last man standing on the raft.

We live in a time where boys do not experience much constructive male on male touch, it is little surprise that in my experience, homophobia is a major problem.

What rough play enables is for boys to get used to having to touch one another in these exercises by wrestling or play fighting, or holding hands to acheive success in the physical task and thus, they have less hang-ups and issues with male on male touch.

Through this peer learning process, homophobia is challenged not from a sexuality veiwpoint but from a ‘pull yourself together, holding hands isn’t the end of the world’ viewpoint.

Once the physical barrier is overcome you can then, in the class room, work on the mental barriers with the term gay and casual homophobia.

For more info I’ve blogged on my work in schools here: http://danielhg.blogspot.com/2007/05/rough-play.html

Daniel – although I often find your comments extremely irritating (ditto I’m sure!), I think the work you describe here and on your blog is admirable and takes a degree of courage and confidence which I know I would not be able to summon.

Thanks for that cjcjc, very kind of you indeed!

Sorry if my question rankled and am grateful for your explanation

As someone who remembers playing games like British Bulldog as a child (the highlight of the scout meeting) and who played rugby etc it had not occurred to me that there was a need for boys to find avenues for expressing their naturally aggresive instincts and you are to be commended for your work.

I have tried to get my head round whether a lack of physical contact with other boys could contribute to homophobic attitudes and am not quite there but am happy to defer to your view.

Apologies for my shortness, wee bit sensitive as dealing online a lot with racist and BNP idiots who have tried to smear me as some kind of sex offender so a little tetchy on the subject.

Daniel,

Where did you get this link between rough play and homophobia?

Are you telling me that in the most homophobic parts of the world today there is not enough rough play? What about the cowboys & Indians, or the African children playing in their villages – and I am sure there are much more examples then I can think of now. These places are less touched by the “increased levels of parental concern about kids getting hurt and not letting children play out and the increased culture of schools facing legal action for injuries as well as a real cutting down on PE in the time table to make way for assessed tasks.”

Lilliput:

You mis-read it, we have problems in our schools with homophobia, it is an unchallenged form of prejudice with gay slurs being used on a regular basis, I do not teach rough play with the sole aim of dealing with this, I teach it to make young boys more at ease with their own bodies and the bodies of their peers.

A pleasent by-product of rough play is that it reduces use of homophobia and homophobic conceptsd and tensions, much of which come from in modern children, various insecurities and issues around the male form.

Homophobia in general is a cultural concern and stems from a huge variety of areas, not sure what that has to do with my work using rough play but hopefully that’s clearer for you?

‘You mis-read it, we have problems in our schools with homophobia, it is an unchallenged form of prejudice with gay slurs being used on a regular basis, I do not teach rough play with the sole aim of dealing with this, I teach it to make young boys more at ease with their own bodies and the bodies of their peers.’

Sorry, but the rugby players in my school were always grabbing each others arses or flicking each other with wet towels and they were generally far more homophobic than the computer nerds.

Shatterface:

Seriously, unless you work professionally with kids for 16 years or so then stay quiet won’t you with your glib nonsense.

I’m an observer on this thread because my neighbourhood doesn’t work this way.

I was struck by the three maps drawn by young people. They’ve used three different techniques to describe their environment, and the creators deliver more information than any set of PowerPoint slides. Beware, Tufte.

The absence from the maps that I notice is the nearest bus stop to home. If you are an emo surrounded by chavs, the safest way to meet your mates is to catch the bus rather than walking. Buses are relatively safe because they are public space.

So why isn’t every street public space rather than gang owned? Don’t give that role to the police — it was their job and they failed. Reverse the consensus and put adults “in control”. We need to time travel back to the 1960s and 1970s, and thus reinvent public space with prior knowledge.

I’ll never forget my mother’s face when I returned home wearing the blazer that Keith blew up…

Shatterface, that’s what I’m trying to understand – the most homophobic men tend to be the ones who play the roughest – rugby, football, soldiers etc the ones most comfortable with their and their peers bodies.

Daniel, where is the research for the following – or is it just your own experience?

“A pleasent by-product of rough play is that it reduces use of homophobia and homophobic conceptsd and tensions, much of which come from in modern children, various insecurities and issues around the male form.”

What about the fact that gay young men (on average – and from my own experience – so don’t shoot me!) don’t seem to like the rough play? That’s why I think rough play should either come in the form of sports practice or spontaneously without the need of a teacher – then those who want to can play and those that don’t – can hang with the girls or read a book.

‘Shatterface:

Seriously, unless you work professionally with kids for 16 years or so then stay quiet won’t you with your glib nonsense.’

Ah, you get paid for it therefore I should bow to your authority on the subject. I’ll go stand in the corner.

Never mind that I might have experience with kids, non-professionally.

Are you into homeopathy as well? I mean the principle sounds rather similar.

Daniel Hoffman -Gill. Good points

If schools undertook rugby , boxing and allowed pupils to play British Bulldog in the breaks from the age of 8 years or so much of the excess energy would be used up.
If one looks at photos of evacuees, there were boys with carrying their boxing gloves.
Both of my grandfathers ,one born in an affluent back ground and one in poverty, both boxed.

Perhaps the emo should take up boxing?

Most prep schools have rugby teams from the age of 8 or 9, why should’ nt state primary schools ? After an hour of playing rugby I had burnt off my energy.

Shatterface:

You’re a bit of a nob aren’t you?

You’re trying to equate your personal experience of rugby lads and geeks to working with thousands of young people and children over a long period of time.

Can you not see your flawed thinking? Do I really have to duke it out with you in this thread over this? I get the sense that you think that putting up a shelf means you’re a chippie? You have to defer to people who have to make a living from it and a huge raft of experience.

And the reason I know you’re a nob is that you go and say this nugget of bollocks:

“Are you into homeopathy as well? I mean the principle sounds rather similar.”

Course I’m not you tool.

Stop trying to be the voice of common sense and realise some stuff you don’t know about.

Serious.

Charlie: to be clear I’m all for more PE and activities that train the body as well as the mind, it’s not so much about macho stuff, a lot of modern lads have a terrible version of macho that we could do without; it’s about getting to know, understand and test your own physical self in a supportive but tough environment.

‘Can you not see your flawed thinking? Do I really have to duke it out with you in this thread over this? I get the sense that you think that putting up a shelf means you’re a chippie? You have to defer to people who have to make a living from it and a huge raft of experience.’

No need to ‘duke’ it out with me, just provide some evidence. I don’t have to defer to you simply because you make a living out of it. Snake oil is snake oil.

I thought I was an angry person but you’ve clearly got issues.

Shatterface:

Provide evidence? For what? For my workshops working? And how do you want me to do that, send you the email addresses of all the schools I’ve worked at for you to contact?

Give me a break, take you folksy nonsense about rugby players and compare it to my posts about rough play work and already we see who has more experience on the matter.

And you have the cheek to call it snake oil? You idiot, really you are.

39 DHG. I agree. This macho culture is often posturing hiding a lack of toughness. Those who are often good at boxing, judo or rugby have a quiet confidence without the macho posturing. These sports also teach boys to be hit or fall without losing their temper and have the mental conrol to act with controlled agresion. Pushing the body to a point of exhaustion helps to release endomorphines and create a sense of well being. When one is in a team which works well, it is a good feeling.

Brendan Ingles the Sheffield boxing trainer said the discipline of boxing; the frequent long and arduous training turned many tearaways into responsible adults and kept them out of prison.

In Liverpool some of the martial artists opened clubs on Friday and Saturday eveining to keeep the kids off the streets.

A Roman Catholic Priest who was a 3rd in Ju Jitsi and Karate ran a club in the East End of London which taught the children self discipline , patience and as they progressed they gained self respect. In additon, they were able to let off steam in a controlled environment.

After all”The Devil finds mischief for idle hands” especially when they have plenty of energy to burn.

Daniel, your inability to control yourself from stupid ad hominum insults on these comments make me very fearful about you being any kind of masculine role model for children.

I highly recommend some kind of supervision so you can work through whatever is currently going on in your life that’s making you so short tempered.

Charlie:

Yes, total agreement that “This macho culture is often posturing hiding a lack of toughness.” and I also inbuilt in the exercises is plenty of team building, group work and focus away from the individual and into a unit.

The greatest shame I suppose is that myself and others who do the work are needed in the first place, something has been lost from childhood, or perhaps childhood is changing into something else, the trouble is some and I hate to say this as I sound like my dad, an ardent Daily Mail reader, old fashioned values and techniques still have their place in modern society, not all but some.

Lilliput:

I think you’ll notive that people who intelligently deabte I have no issue with, it’s only morons like you that struggle with me. And you’re doing yourself no favours casting nasty aspersions on my professional abilities, tread carefully around my working with young people, I have zero tolerance for people that try and smear me and my abilities.

I take my work with them very seriously indeed and I’ll brook none of your shitty slurs thank you.

Now kindly fuck off.

I have one, slight problem with all this.

If those kids are outside, like on the street, then where are the others who are playing on their X-Box’ PS3′s etc, becoming obese because of the lack of exercise?

Or are kids just another political pawn to frig around with while thinking up tomorrows headline about Paris Hilton is a complete tart but has just brought out a new perfume?

And whether you agree with me or not – I don’t think Paris Hilton is a tart nor a slut, but her perfume is shite, bought the wife some and wanged it.

That made me laugh Will, in a good way.

I’ve noticed that parents that care (to use a vulgar generalisation) tend to keep their kids in and their kids fearful of what’s outside. The reason they all don’t end up obese is the after school club culture that has sprung up.

Parents that care less, tend to let their kids roam about, not that they get much exercise, they just get cold being outdoors all the time.

‘Provide evidence? For what? For my workshops working?’

Well, yes, that’s how things work in the evidence based community.

‘And how do you want me to do that, send you the email addresses of all the schools I’ve worked at for you to contact?’

That wouldn’t prove anything other than the fact that you can market your services.

I’ve actually been uncharacteristically reasonable and given you ample chance to respond in an equally reasonable manner but as Lilliput says you’ve just gone ad hom.

I’m all for rough play but you’ve yet to supply any evidence that kids can pummel the homophobia out of each other.

Parents that care less, tend to let their kids roam about, not that they get much exercise, they just get cold being outdoors all the time.

I roamed when I was a kid – dad kicked us out so we could ‘play’.

“Army” was a good game – kick-can and ‘ook-it; was another. We even played, politically incorrect ‘Cowboys and Indians’ with the ensuing fist-fights because we didn’t want to be Indians because we would all die.

We weren’t feral, just kids – but Mr Morris was a total twat because if the ball went in his garden he put a knife in it and said he would tell our dad’s if we “cheeked back”. I lost my Moonbase and 1999 toys when Mark Carvey kicked his leather football in that garden and our dad’s had to put together for a new one for him – never played with that morngy git again!

Will, you’re making me laugh no end and lifting the Shatterface based misery. Ever play kerby?

Shatterface:

I missed the part where your credentials as a judge and jury of whether or not someone is qualified to work with young people and whether their techniques work, were mentioned?

Can you show where that is again before I email you my resume?

I’ve supplied evidence in the form of a lengthy comment here and on my blog post linked above and I’m afraid, considering I make a living by working with children and young people, you’re going to have to *SHOCK HORROR* defer to someone who knows more about this issue.

I know this will be hard for you to handle as you like to think you know it all but in this case, you really are out of your league.

Also, to be clear and to highlight that Shitface you don’t read anything properly, I never said that “kids can pummel the homophobia out of each other.” I made it very clear what the rough play work I do is about and that using it as a tool to deal with homophobia in modern children in modern schools (rather than in your day) is a by-product and not the main aim of the work.

Lovely.

Daniel,

The ‘Collins Gem English Dictionary,’ on the shelf, defines the word Pompous as follows:
Pompous. adj. foolishly serious and grand, self-important

Your comments, insults and attempts to put-down other posters really have made me laugh over the past few minutes.

Keep it up, every board needs a clown.

Kojak:

let me get this straight you sad little ballbag, you’ve come to this thread with the sole purpose of attacking me and offering nothing on the subject matter at hand?

HA HA HA!

On a serious note, the Collins Gem English Dictionary does not exist and the copy you have is fake and no matter ho wmany times you assure me it is the real copy all I will say back is that it is fake and I need a copy approved by the Supreme Court.

Thus your definition of pompous is wrong as you quote it from a book that does not really exist, even though you have something called hard evidence.

STICK THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT RUDE BOY!!!

Amazon

” the trouble is some and I hate to say this as I sound like my dad, an ardent Daily Mail reader, old fashioned values and techniques still have their place in modern society, not all but some.”

Ah, apparently old fashioned values and techniques ‘still have a place’ in modern society? Really, is that so? One wonders why you had such total faith in the ‘new’ values and techniques. I’ll bet when your reactionary Dail Mail reading dad was young, i.e. in the bad past, before our society was ‘modernized’ by elite liberals (in ways invariably agianst the wishes of the public) boys didn’t go around shooting and stabbing eachother in the head. A good quote of Churchill’s comes to mind “When I was a boy of 14 my father was so ignorant, I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much he had learned in 7 years.” I guess you’re probably over 21 in age, Daniel but your mind has clearly become arrested in adolescence.

Will:

Sorry but linking to actual evidence of it’s existence doesn’t mean it exists, just ask Kojak, he knows all there is about denying evidence…

Adrian:

Woah there, you like the sound of something and then you run with it to the bloody hills don’t you, only to look under your arm and see you’ve been running for ages with a bag of bollocks.

I have no idea what your comment was baging on about but you’re talking rubbish and not making any sense.

There’s a surprise.

ONWARDS!

Any homophobic rugby players need to take a look at these guys:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieux_du_Stade

I think the Hoff’s having a stroke.

Someone phone an ambulance.

“I have no idea what your comment was baging on about but you’re talking rubbish and not making any sense.”

I’m beginning to doubt whether you understand anything written on these threads. You seem to be hanging around here very often yet you have remarkably little to say.

“whilst responding emotionally to problems which need rational policy solutions isn’t always helpful” – fair enough Neil, but I’m just watching tonight’s Beeb film, “The Truth about Crime” – it looks there are huge issues regarding reporting/recording of violent incidents (in essence it is grossly under-reported, especially in the sphere of domestic violence).

Presumably until we have meaningful data it will be very difficult to decide on policy?

Some of the young people involved in the programme say they had been subject to violence but many do not report these incidents to the Police.

One line of reasoning (for this lack of reporting) seemed to be a sort of fatalism, or an acceptance that violence, especially alcohol fueled violence is simply part and parcel of ‘modern’ life?

59. A and E. I think you are correct.The frequency of attacks and the fatalism that goes with it, is very worrying.

Daniel,

Is that your idea of rational debate – calling people morons and telling then to fuck off?

I’m struggling to tell the difference between the teacher and the adolescent.

*rolls up sleeves*

CJ:

God bless the French and all who sail in her!

Shatterface:

Not a stroke, just some tea, a milky way and playwriting. Smashing.

Adrian:

Very little to say? Clearly not, if I didn’t offer anything the tit-faced hordes would have nothing to devour and pick over. Take care now!

Lilliput:

Hello darling, seriously, do you have owt to say on the matter at hand or are you just going to whinge about me?

Answer it in your own head and please don’t type the answer.

ONWARD!

I meant that you have had very little to say of substance – and you then react hysterically to anyone who points this out to you. I wonder what your pupils think of you because to me you come across a complete wanker.

Daniel,

I’ve been out and come back – during which time you’ve gone from comedy to tragedy.
By any chance, you don’t write for ‘Ed Reardon’s Week’ on Radio 4, do you?
It’s just you seem to be acting out his part.

It’s late now + I hope you get some rest.
Off to bed for me.

I agree with Hoffman-Gill. Rough play is an excellent idea to combat homophobia. I believe that if all young men are made to partake in rough sports at schools, it lowers their chances of developing homosexual tendencies. With fewer homosexuals, homophobia will be less of a problem. I speak from personal experience. I was in the rugby team at school and none of us turned out to be gay. On the contrary, almost all of us had girl-friends or were having intimate intercourse on a frequent basis with Bertha, (the groundskeeper’s daughter with an exceedingly low level of self-respect).

Adrian:

In your opinion, as you’ll see plenty of others here think I have substance on this issue, unlike you, who bring nothing. Think about it, you could be wrong you old toad, oh the horror of it for you!!!

Kojak:

I have decided that you don’t exist and that is no evidence for you.

Anonymous Coward:

You’re talking bollocks. fancy a wrestle?

Daniel,

Lovebug, you’re missing your calling – leave the classroom for stand up comedy – I haven’t laughed this much in a long time – so thank you for that at least. Its always good to mix comedy with politics – stops us from taking everything too seriously!

Morning Lilliput you terrible old ham! Sleep well?

*Stage Whisper* I’m actually an actor by trade, since I turned pro in 97 with a side line in comedy gold, however, working with children and young people has ran hand in hand with acting as it helps keep one’s feet on the ground and focused on important matters.

I’ll be doing some stand-up in London town and Manchester come November so pop along and laugh yuor balls off or your money back.

I do gags about immigration.

On a serious note for a wee bit and one for crime and punishment overlord cjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcj:

Knife crime goes up in areas with extra knife crime policing: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/22/knife-crime-deaths-rise

BUGGER!

[69] While fatalities have remained fairly static, according the Guardian item you link to, this item suggests ‘serious’ injuries (from knife crimes) has fallen by a whopping 30%, at least in London (according to this commentary on ‘Operation Blunt’).
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/knife-crime-the-breakthrough-1687212.html

Needless to say there has always been a disparity between the ACTUAL number of stabbings (or psychological trauma after being threatened with a knife) and the number of incidents actually reported to the authorities.
To combat this some A&E departments are collecting/collating anonymised data on all violent incidents in order to supply the Police with focussed data on the location, time of incident, involvement of alcohol etc.

Apparently the crime rate in Cardiff dropped significantly after this type of info was collected in A&E because the cops were then able to target their resources far more effectively.
http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/125/getinvolved/mycardiff/100408.html

Yes, this from Prof Shepherd (see link 70)
“It came as a real surprise to me to find that I was treating cases week in, week out, where the cause of the injury was simply not being investigated, let alone brought to book. These attacks were just not being reported. My reaction was one of shock – it seemed like such an injustice.

With a team of researchers, we investigated further, comparing police and Accident and Emergency (A and E) cases, looking at records in Cardiff, Bristol and Swansea. We found that only 23 per cent of accident and emergency cases where people were treated after all attacks were recorded by police. We also found that seven out of eight violent incidents on licensed premises such as pubs, bars and clubs did not appear on police records.

I thought there was scope here for prevention by working in an integrated way with the police, the hospitals and the local authorities to identify and target the violence hot spots. I felt it was essential to integrate the police and A&E data, particularly on locations and weapons.

As a result, we set up the Cardiff Violence Prevention Group – a partnership approach which was not being adopted anywhere else in the country at the time. The police, the local authority and A&E staff first got round a table in the summer of 1996. We introduced an entirely new system for sharing hospital data about violent incidents with the police and the local authority colleagues. No personal details were passed on, but the information allowed the police to build up a picture of those pubs and clubs which were the worst for violence.

There’s no doubt it had an effect. We saw a 60 per cent fall in injuries in the targeted licensed premises and a 40 per cent fall in the number of victims coming in to hospital for treatment. It had such an impact, Cardiff rose markedly up the league table for safest cities.

Maybe this is the sort of initiative Neil is alluding to in his main post?

Shall we cut the police presence and see what happens?

It would be an interesting experiment…

cjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjc:

Yes, let’s cut the police presence and increase the youth worker presence and out reach workers and voluntary local people staffing a youth club and engaging the whole bloody community rather than hiding behind locked doors and dialling 999.

OK – though my worry is that it’s a bit late for your kind of rough play in many cases!

cjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjcjc:

Indeed, forgive flippancy, I just mean that policing is great, I love the police but they hacve an effect upon an area they are always involved in, both good and bad and increased community responsibility with an increase in people to work and engage with the young people can make a good difference but the key is local community volunteers, mums and dads of the young people themsleves helping out and then older members of the community, it starts to bridge the gaps.

Again, all very old fashioned, ideas of community and everyone knowing each other but it works.

Daniel re: comment 68,

Stand up in London sounds like it might be fun.
You must let us know where and when.
I’ll be towards the back, with a lollipop, of course

Kojak, I’ll keep you abreast of all matters comedy, not till November but I will plug remorselessly.

Kojak, keep a seat for me next to you – I wouldn’t miss it for the world!

Tickets selling like bloody hotcakes!