Wrong, Spain is a capitalist country by any measure.

Spain is a mixed economy with significant public sector provision. It is wrong to dismiss the argument because it is not 100% socialist – it is certainly not 100% capitalist!

Public sector provision does not equal socialism. Actually it depends on what you mean by socialism, but use of the phrase “the socialist revolution continues” whilst calling for laws to make it easier to fire people in the hope that capitalist bosses will offer permanent contracts is to mutilate the language a la Dubya.

Seriously, Mr Kinnock, go back to sleep!

With regards to increased taxes:

I don’t know anything about Spain in particular, other that I’m going there in 3 weeks to get smashed at a music fest. But, if they’re similar to us in any way, then I reckon they’ll have areas where they can drastically cut spending to counter any kind of ‘need’ to increase taxes.

For example, our ‘War on Drugs’ based around a drugs policy that doesn’t work, has cost us over £110bn since Labour came in to power in 1997 – and that’s just on combating class A drugs. So by changing policy to decriminalise drugs you strip away swathes of costs. Cracking down on tax-havens would also save a few bob. Not renewing Trident would free up billions for the economy.

The point I’m making is that the rise in taxes could be through the incompetence of the Spanish government in their ability to cut unnecessary costs, perhaps not due to the socialistic element of their style of government.

I think we need a simpler conception of socialism as the belief that we are all stronger if we work together for the common good. Socialism needs to be uncoupled from ideas about astronomical taxes and poorly run bureaucracies.

Liberalism and socialism are not ideas which are set in stone, and they are not fundamentally opposed either. So, at the risk of sounding extremely New Labour – Europe needs a new liberal socialism.

http://petespolitics.wordpress.com

I’m awfully sorry- I’m about to start a colossal rant- but this article contains a staggering amount of inconsistencies and misconceptions - of the type a Spanish conservative would be proud of!

Seriously, whoever wrote it needs to check that his stuff is right before pressing the button that says ’submit’.

Unbelievable how people can walk around spurting about such an amount of trite propaganda.It contains sweeping unsubstantiated remarks such as “it’s so hard to fire anyone”. In Spain? What are you talking about?

And what’s the story about “permananet temporary contracts?” In that respect, the legislation in Spain is actually one of the most interesting in Europe. By law a company can only give you a set number of temporary contracts over time after which they have to HIRE YOU PERMANENTLY (it’s called “conversion de contrato temprario en indeterminado”)

I don’t even know where to begin. Until a year ago when Spain was hailed as an “economic model” and one of the fastest growing in the EU, all the usual “experts” were praising its flexible system unlike, say, those of Italy or France.
Now suddenly it’s become ‘inflexible’. How does that work? Firing in Spain is EASY. Read that? Incredibly EASY. Those who want to take advantage of the crisis to make even EASIER are, surprise surprise, those from the Spanish equivalent of the CBI and the hard-right of the Partido Popular (the Spanish ‘Tories’).

Spain has – the only thing true about this piece- a terrible unemployment rate, but it’s due to its heavy reliance on the construction sector.

The author of this piece though fails to mention that the numerous measures taken by Zapatero are finally starting to pay off. In May, for the first time in 14 months, the unemployment rate went down by 24,741 people.

The government passed some difficult measures centred around public infrastructure, a car scrappage system, tax relief for companies and incentives to hire people on the dole. They passed a mortgage relief scheme, a scheme that protects both tenants and landlords in the event of sudden redundancy.

And about increasing taxes? WHAT IS THIS AUTHOR ON ABOUT?
In May the Government cut by 5% (from 25 to 20%) taxes on all small and medium enterprises.

The stuff about banks! Jack Zishou, CHECK YOUR FACTS! Compare the quazillions spent by the UK government to bail out major banks in the country with the ZERO money the Spanish government spent. That’s because the system was better regulated in Spain and that’s not just under Zapatero. Banks havent been able to take the piss like in Britain or the US.

The Spanish Government has actually been the only modern and consistently Socialist one in the last 10 years in Europe. Seriously, after the enormous disappointment of New Labour, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has actually given me some hope that a centre-left government is not necessarily going to sell out or lick the arses of the usual suspects.

He was coherent about Iraq (first thing he did when elected in 2004 was to get the fuck out of there), about secularising the Spanish state, about respecting regional and linguistic diversities. He legalises same-sex marriages (even though the powerful Catholic Church were having fits of rage), promoted the use of contraceptives, invested heavily in health and education, supported the low-paid with legislation favouring tenants (the UK should learn a thing or two about it), kept one of the lowest taxation rates in the EU, etc

I could go on, but I think I may actually write a post of my own.

Which regions of Spain are better & worse off?

I am thinking if they have a nationwide unemployment of 20%, their equivalent of the northern cities & mining/manufacturing regions will be getting one huge kicking.

Asquith,

in Spain there is no longer a major regional divide like in the UK. Some regions are obviously a bit behind (Extremadura, for instance, near Portugal) and some have traditionally been more industrialised etc (Catalunya, the Basque Country).

I must also add, from my rant above, that dole protection in Spain is more sympathetic than in the UK. The downside is that the dole in Spain comes to an end after about two years. Even so, Zapatero’s government have just passed a measure that would hand 400 Euros to every unemployed person who’s without any social protection.

The handouts are tied to signing up to (re-)training schemes.

One question for the ill-informed author of this piece.
If Spain is such a socialistic, bureaucratic, inflexible, illiberal and politically oppressive country, why is it that a million Brits and 200,000 Germans and plenty more foreigners are choosing to move to Spain?

Between 2000 and 2009, over 5 million non-Spaniards moved to Spain.

Is it just cos it’s sunny and oranges are cheap? Or is it because the country is actually a fine example of good public services, good infrastructure and decent standard of living?

They also have mass immigration coupled with demographic collapse among the natives. The Spanish cultural collapse (exemplified by their retreat from Iraq after the Madrid bombings) makes Britain’s look like a little local difficulty. In 1975 the average senora had 2.8 babies – well above the 2.1 replacement rate. But that rate was passed in 1981, and is currently at 1.3, having been as low as 1.1 only a few years ago.

Lousy education, bloated public sector – you can see why so many Brits move there. Just like home.

“…(exemplified by their retreat from Iraq after the Madrid bombings)…”

Denouncing the Spaniards for electing Zapatero. That is so 2004.

[Any friendly moderators about? That was me, obviously.]

Laban
Why don’t you go back to sheep and the thoughts of thatcherite wonderland where slavery can be brought back on economic grounds.

“They also have mass immigration coupled with demographic collapse among the natives. The Spanish cultural collapse (exemplified by their retreat from Iraq after the Madrid bombings) makes Britain’s look like a little local difficulty.”

In about 2005 ALL blog comments were this ridiculous. How far we’ve come.

So as I understand the OP, PSOE should introduce the ppolicies that the PP want in oerder to prevent the PP winning an election.

Now, as it happens, on current form the PP probably won’t win in 2012 – they’d want to be rather further ahead than they are, early-mid-term in the teeth of a recession – but either way, it’s hard to see what the point is, if you’re just going to introduce the policies they’d like.

It’s highly unlikely that reducing sales tax would end the open corruption in house sales (when I say “open”, I mean you’re actually invited to go into a nearby room and hand over, in cash, the large percentage of the purchase price you and the vendor are keeping off-book) because the “savings” from corruption are so high that a small alteration i nsales tax wouldn’t be incentive enough to make people honest.

It’s true that customer service is dreadful by British standards but in all honesty it’s just as bad in the private sector – the reasons are hard to pin down but there’s a long tradition of bureacracy in Spain and a very short tradition of complaining. Doing the minimum until the last minute is a cultural habbit, not a function of unionisation. If you don’t like it (and I don’t) it makes Spain more difficult, but that’s the downside to compensate for having better food, a far better media/political culture and a far better approach to bringing up kids.

Nor is it remotely impossible to run a small business: there’s cast numhbers of them! As far as I can see (I live in Huesca province) far more businesses are family firms than in the UK, for instance. I’ll be running a small business myself from September.

Yes, there are inefficiencies, it’s probably a little harder to dismiss a bad teacher than it ought to be (they’re much worse paid than in the UK, incidentally) and certain things are more convoluted than they ought to be. It’s also harder for public sector people to move jobs (and to turn down unattractive posts) than in the UK. It could probably use a little reform but rhetoric-driven reform is not such a good idea.

At the end of the day it’s not about getting out of the recession – it’s about the complaints of the well-off, who always demand fewer regulations and fewer employment rights. Why is there such a high unemployment rate in Spain? Not because the public sector was inefficient, but because, as in Ireland, the economy was too unbalanced, too dependent on construction. But that’s what deregulation does, it stops governments having any control over the shape of the economy: it’s a recipe for further recession, not less. Oh, and one reason why there was so much construction is that so much of it was corruption-driven. And a very large slice of that was down to Spanish business, and the Partido Popular.

By the way, Laban’s link is to a genuinely foul piece of racism. Genuinely disgusting.

#ejh
Nor is it remotely impossible to run a small business: there’s cast numbers of them! As far as I can see (I live in Huesca province) far more businesses are family firms than in the UK, for instance. I’ll be running a small business myself from September.

I concur. When I first went to Spain I was blown away by the number of family-run and small-to-medium businesses. Coming from the reality of Clonetown where every chemists is Boots and every supermarket is Tesco or Sainsburys and you only get your clothes and records from the usual suspects, it was amazing to see independent shops, grocers, businesses.

But the bone I have to pick with the article by Jack Zishou is that it’s straight from the school of Aaronovitch/Nick Cohen. The premises are “I’m not right-wing” and it’s as if that justifies the lazy bashing at a vague notion of “socialism”, in this case the PSOE government.
All made worse by th fact that it’s frankly based on very little truth.

Jack Zhisou has it as a “given” that the PP will win the next elections.
‘Course all is possible, but it’s hardly as obvious as in Britain. In the midst of the worst recession ever, the PP should have slaughtered the PSOE at the European elections.

More so, as the leftist vote in elections such as the European or local ones tends to be generously split in Catalunya and the Basque Countries where many people on the left vote for pro-independence parties (Esquerra Republicana, CiU or PnV).
Such voters tend to coalesce around the PSOE when there’s a General Elections.

In the end all PP managed was a rickety 3% lead, which -3 years away from the general elections- is nothing to write home about.

Jack Zhisou, here’s my humble advice, rip it up and start again.

Social democratic governments, pushed by selfish unions representing a bloated public sector into stalling reform, and forcing the hand of right-wing parties into bravely rescuing the country from disaster… This really is Lazy Right-wing Narratives 101.

Is this type of angry conservative prejudice really what a supposedly left-liberal website should be disseminating to its readership? The only compensation was Clade’s excellent rebuttal of these distortions.

It is amusing how the intricacies of domestic Spanish politics have moved the country to the wrong side of the ideological divide in the neo-liberal mindset. Previously an exemplary model of the ‘flexible’ economies that Europe apparently ‘needs’, now it is in the midst of a bureaucratic, “Socialist revolution”? We have always been at war with Eastasia.

I don’t believe I quoted any PP policies, not sure they have that many. It is true that they may not win in 2012, they certainly should be further ahead as ejh rightly says, but where reform is badly needed – such as in Spain’s inflexible employment laws – better the PSOE do it than the PP!

On some of the other points, it is not easy to fire anyone in Spain. It really isn’t. There are massive financial payments for firing anyone. Courts almost always side with the employee is wrongful dismissal cases – perpetual under-performance counts not a jot. Unless the employee has broken the law, they’re safe as houses. Claude raises many good points, but not this one.

The previous boom in Spain was primarily off the back of construction as Spain rebuilt itself following Franco’s reign. This was not a triumph of any “flexible” Spanish system, it was a triumph of EU funding and Spanish engineering.

EJH, you raise many excellent points also – of course it’s far more complex and culturally rooted than the article suggests, and you’re right to raise the compensations of living in Spain – something Claude also rightly mentions.

Zapatero has done many good things – again Claude points these out. I agree – just didn’t think it was relevant to this particular point as they are mainly social not economic.

Also – again to Claude and ejh, the small business – I agree it makes for a much more interesting high street – but how many small businesses declare all their earnings? How much of the money is off the books? Far too much, sadly, because it’s the only way to survive. Accountants advise you how to do it – many companies relaunch officially every three years to avoid investigation. You’re right, it’s not “impossible” to run a small business, I should have said “it’s practically impossible to run a small business legally”.

Lastly Asquith – there is regional variation. Catalunya, Madrid and the Basque Country are the richest, Extremadura is the poorest. The north tends to be richer than the south. I don’t know if the unemployment is regional or structural, I suspect the latter as the mighty construction industry in particular is suffering.

Thanks for reading the article and offering your thoughts – really insightful. It’s the first time I’ve written this sort of thing and it’s interesting how throwaway comments I can normally get away with are taken seriously or literally. Note to self: be more careful with words like “impossible”!

Calling Spain ’socialist’ is a bit of a stretch, although it only seems like that to people who are intimately familiar with the varieties of socialism (although calling Spain ‘Socialist’ with a capital ‘S’ may be fairer, since the governing party is the Socialist Worker’s Party, after all).

However, anyone who has similarly claimed that Britain or the US or any other country represents ‘capitalism’ in all its forms (or, even worse, ‘libertarianism’) is guilty of precisely the same crime, making any protestations about the abuse of the term ’socialist’ moot. Personally, I’d prefer to believe that these terms mean something more than ‘people who are somewhere over there on the political spectrum’. If we want vague, contentless political labels, that’s what we have ‘right’ and ‘left’ for!

What a terrible article. Who is this imbecile & why is Liberal Conspiracy hosting this moronic right-wing drivel?

Far too much, sadly, because it’s the only way to survive.

Well, no it isn’t and I have to say that while running a shop, our accountant didn’t advise us to do things off-balance-sheet. But of course may do, and of course people do indeed so a lot of things illegally – not because they have to but for the same reason that companies in the UK often ignore H&S provisions*. Because they won’t get investigated and won’t get caught. To that extent bureaucracy is their friend: it’s something that’s true of Spain in general, that there are many more rules that there are in the UK, but many fewer are enforced. (This may, by the way, be why PP – and indeed PAR, in La Muela, and PSOE elsewhere – don’t tend to lose out electorally when there’s demonstrable corruption, because nobody’s shocked.)

It’s harder to fire somebody in Spain, but very far from impossible and there’s a view that during a recession, this might actually be a good thing.

[* as of course they do in Spain, of course, with an even higher degree of impunity.]

“a far better media/political culture in Spain”

Can you expand?

Yes: I don’t remotely mean “there’s better programmes on TV” (by general consent there’s almost nothing worth watching) but I mean that they things are conducted inthe UK, where nearly everything is a screaming match where we demand a scapegoat, is not the way things are conducted in Spain.

This may change, of course, and it’s not a black-and-white situation, but for the while things are done a bit more intelligently: reasons would include the absence of a tabloid press, the fact that PSOE does not (yet, anyway) ape the New Labour policy of playing up to people’s worst instincts, and the fact that democratisation and social liberalisation are recent (and in some ways ongoing) experiences.

The consequences are that there is still a wide spectrum of political thought within the Spansh mainstream, so real debate actually takes place and there is still a noticeable right/left divide over which important issues are fought: and that a large proportion of senior people in both media and politics grew up under Franco and during the period after his death, which in my opinion impresses on their minds the importance of the press in a way that’s not true (or not nearly so much) in the UK.

Or more simply: the most widely read newspaper in Spain is El Pais, in the UK it’s the Currant Bun. Which is better?

Oh, there’s something I wanted to say that bothered me about the OP and subsequent comments. What’s fair or unfair dismissal got to do with getting out of the recession? It’s a complete red herring. If you want to argue that it should be easier to dismiss incompetent employees, then that’s a point of view, but that’s got nothing to do with whether or not firms who are in economic difficulties can make savings by dismissing surplus employees. These are two separate issues and to combine them gives the unfortunate impression of an attempt to use the recession to make changes which one side of industry considers in its interests. There’s a lot of this about.

EJH, on the media, I agree with you largely – except the red top trash is mainly on TV rather than in print. That said, I really really can’t stand ABC.

On the dismissal point – the argument was intended to suggest that not only is financial-redundancy difficult unless the organisation is in serious trouble (although not impossible), but also performance-related dismissal is very difficult (almost impossible) which drags at productivity. In a recession this becomes more of an issue and there is greater pressure for change. Apologies that this was not clear.

I believe that change is needed to help Spain become more productive and allow greater flexibility to employers and employees. The recession gives them an opportunity to do it right before PP do it wrong (although I accept that PP might not win in 2012).

ejh,
excellent analysis. I couldn’t agree more. Especially on the comparative view b/w UK media and Spanish one.

Also, many Brits have this cliche’ that everything foreign is incredibly bureaucratic. True of certain countries, but not of all. And I personally did not encounter tragic levels of bureaucracy in Spain. No more than in the public sector (or actually even private) in the UK of which I could write a book of horror stories I personally witnessed.

zishous @24,
you’ll find that ABC has some real common ground with you on the topic of dismissals and radical (counter)reforms of the labour market.

The first time I set foot in a social security office in Spain to collect my papers I was blown away by certain posters on the wall. They sported a slogan on the lines of : “Entrepreneurs and workers: Permanent contracts are good for all of us. Seek a permanent contract” and it was by the Department of Work & Pensions.

I remember telling my partner that in Britain you could only dream of something like that. Not that practically those posters would make a difference, but it was nice to see a government at least acknoweldging that the culture of ‘casualisation’ of the labour market is bad for society in the medium/long run.

It is very important to remember that, when the boom kicked off in the 90s, the number of casual labourers in Spain was rocketing up and temping agencies to be found at every corner. It was during the late years of Aznar that things changed and the law was adapted as to incentivate permanent contracts.

Yes, it’s true, when you fire somebody you have to pay an “INDEMNITY”, but can someone explain why a liberal/leftists should see that as a bad thing?
This indeminity that the OP calls “Massive financial payments for firing anyone” consists of 45 days for every year you’ve worked. Shock and horror, eh?

The Spanish CBI are calling for 45 days to be reduced to 20.
Zapatero answered that “As long as I’m Prime Minister no-one will use this recession to erode workers’ rights”. Can you picture Tony Blair or Gordon Brown saying that? And is your analogy to Mr Bean all you can come up with zishou?

Final note: I feel very passionate about Spain and the PSOE as I really think they are the last truly democratic socialist, secular and relatively worker/friendly government standing in Western Europe. Its fall would hand the whole of the EU to the conservatives from Sarkozy to Berlusconi and from Cameron to Merkel.

& don’t forget the female majority cabinet!

ty@21

Oh…and there’s no TV licence in Spain. It simply doesn’t exist. Seriously!

zishou @24
but also performance-related dismissal is very difficult (almost impossible)
No. You offer the 45-day-per-year indemnity and bob’s your uncle. That is it. That simple.

Compare it with 1½ weeks’ pay per year (or 1 week’s pay depending on your age) in the UK- when you’re lucky enough to work with a permanent contract.

I’ll leave it to you which is fairer. Especially in this “flexible” day and age when people are unlikely to tally any longer than a handful of years in the same job.

James@26
Exactly! And you have no idea the kinf of fits of rage the Partido Popular had when the female majority cabinet was unveiled.

Claude, your point is valid for redundancy payments and I agree with you – but for performance-related dismissals, having to shell out 45 days for every year they’ve worked there makes it very expensive indeed.

This means long-standing employees can become untouchable. This drags at businesses, is demotivating for other employees and puts the newer hires in greater jeopardy. The job market becomes more stagnant, performance isn’t rewarded – well-meaning as it may be, it just doesn’t help anyone.

There are many stories about how badly this can turn out. This is anecdotal now, but bear with me – there are employees who perform badly to try and force their own dismissal because they want the money. There are employers who make the employee’s life hell because they want them to leave but can’t afford the payout – I’ve even heard this discussed openly as a standard tactic!

This cannot be right.

The posters about Permanent Contracts are good, I’m all in favour of measures which favour the permanent contract. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. The small print surrounding permanent employment has to work for both the employer and the employee and which is the long-term interests of both.

Also … I too am passionate about Spain and recognise that it must be PSOE that build on the good but challenge the bad. The PSOE are doing a lot of good things, especially solid longer-term measures. Even the tax hikes on tobacco to invest in the health service and the rises on fuel to invest in climate are superb policies in principle, though I think the latter is ill-timed. There are gaps though – fundamental gaps, where they’re ruled out reform. It’s a pity because I am very scared of Rajoy and his ragtag band.

zhisou,
I’ve heard such ’stories’ too but, even if they were true, the employers have the following ‘weapons’:

- a 6-month probationary period in which they could technically vet people on everything including ‘performance’.
- the fact that in this day and age, and the changing nature of work, less and less people spend decades at the same company. It’s already a tiny minority.
- if an employer can’t afford the payout, they can apply for the government to step in (for emergency situations). It takes a bit of time but eventually the dough arrives.
- it’s the nature of fairness. Workers need protection. Especially in a situation like this.

How can it be fair to have millions of jobless people with just a week or two’s pay per- year-worked to cope on their own? What are the long-term consequences for society?

It is thanks to the social protection that, in spite of staggering levels of unemployment, Spain hasn’t witnessed any social unrest.
I can’t remember who actually said “If 18% had been on the dole twenty-five years ago there’d have been a revolution”.

You say that the job market becomes more stagnant but that’s your opinion. It’s based exclusively on your opinion.

I could give you my anecdotal evidence of big companies in the UK stuffed with casuals or temping workers who coudln’t care less because they know that no matter how much sweat they put into it, they are just profit fodder and may be disposed of at any moment. Their attachment to their job is low to non-existent, their moral is under the carpet and their levels of skills and knowledge of the specific workplace (given the high turnover level) poor.
The stuff that if you’re on your toes at all time you perform better is just a bosses’ myth.

—
zhisou,
Please note I mean this cordially and with respect:
How -concretely- does your opinion differ from today’s ultra-liberals a-la John Redwood and chunks of the PP in Spain?

I think we could gain a lot from following the example of the Socialist Workers Party in Spain, but I also think we can help them by warning them of the dangers of abandoning socialism in favour of liberalism. You’ll never be able to really beat the PP on its own terms, so don’t try.

James,

What a terrible article. Who is this imbecile & why is Liberal Conspiracy hosting this moronic right-wing drivel?

Stop being a dick. Actually the article represents the liberal economic outlook shared by many readers and writers at “Liberal” Conspiracy.

This article is a right-wing toss-pot bemoaning how hard it is for a Spaniard business owner to fire one of their employees. Where does this begin to be left wing?

Aaron,
you’re one of my fav people at Lib Conspiracy and Jack Zhisous sounds like a nice guy, but…please tell me you had a drink too many when you wrote that the article represents the liberal economic outlook shared by many readers and writers !

Perhaps he meant the libertarian trolls…

All you Spanish residents are making me feel really jealous. Can’t you tell us a few negatives about the country to make us Anglo dwellers feel a bit less bad about ourselves?

I see where Aaron is coming from. The orthodox economic ideology of our time is liberalism. Not Lib Dems, but Milton Friedman style liberalism.

“Flexible” labour markets = more sackings but more hirings too.

“High” taxes = poor business environment

“The Socialist revolution continues” = urghhh…. stoopid socialists spending money on infrastructure and healthcare!!!

It’s not bizarre, its not correct, I mean it is a crock of shit, but I totally understand where they are coming from. It is not an odd point of view at all. I’d rather it was on a Liberal site like this so it could be engaged with than just not here at all.

This article is a right-wing toss-pot bemoaning how hard it is for a Spaniard business owner to fire one of their employees. Where does this begin to be left wing?

Not every article here has to be fit received leftwing wisdom. The editors would prefer if people engaged with the article and attacked it / discussed it on its own merit rather than questioning everything they don’t agree with and saying it shouldn’t be posted in the first place.

Sure Sunny, but enough of the Thatcher cabinet deemed her government “Liberal” for that term to leave me faintly nervous about its vagueness. Basically this website is my piece of respite from the otherwise overwhelming orthodoxy of “Up the markets, fuck the worker”. I’d prefer it if that didn’t get undermined, but it’s your place so do with it as you will.

As for “its own merit”, well it was terrible. Gave me a narrow ideologue’s eye view of the country, like I was peering through some distorted hour-glass. You might say I’m just hankering for an ideologue with the same ideology that I have but I don’t think that’s fair: I read Austrian School stuff for fun, some times. The problem here is it doesn’t really tell us a huge amount apart from seemingly an employers perspective on the situation.

Basically if you got the CBI to do an article on the state of Britain this is sort of what I expect it would look like. The figleaf of employment controls being bad for the worker (who of course, desires nothing more than a total absence of job security) & the apparent absolute blindness to the context of downsizing (people might fire then not hire? Nonsense, surely nonsense!) is a mere irritation (like Danny Finkelstein feigning sympathy for the trade unionists of Iran in his recent Times column). In summary its not only an unpleasant, unhelpful read but is the sort of thing I’d expect not to find here. & it wasn’t an unpleasant surprise (post up some proper Austrian School stuff & you’d get my respect. If only to see what the libertarian/troll crowd do when they get outflanked! Anarchist, radical localist, perhaps even a neo-feudalist, might also be fun. I’m fine with non-typical left, but at least make it interesting.)

Left Outside – I understand that that is the case, but I don’t think that it’s really a pill most of the Liberal Con. contributers (either writers or readers/commenters) have swallowed. I might be wrong, perhaps I should just assume Aaron knows better than I do.

It’s reasonable to say that it was a surprising piece to find on this particular site.

Sorry, “wasn’t a pleasant surprise.”

James,

Austrian school. Stop trying to sound clever. We’ve all read the books.

But some of the readers and contributors have actually worked in industry as well as built their own businesses. Just because they believe that excessive worker protections *can* actually impede employment, is not cause for personal attacks.

I have ten years management experience, significant financial training, and have worked with several successful start-up businesses. Surely my opinion counts for something?

I am not a socialist. If this is reason enough for you to ignore and hate me, whatever.

Fairly blatant distortion of what I was saying there, Aaron. I didn’t say we should ignore everyone with business experience, I certainly didn’t say I hate all non-socialists (it’s a label I’ve struggled with even applying to myself, ffs!). Unless you’re willing to respond to my actual points rather than one’s you’ve invented on my behalf for convenience’s sake then I’ve no interest in continuing this discussion, I don’t enjoy straw-man battery.

& I’m not “trying to sound clever”. I would just like some interesting right-wing contrarianism if we’re going to have to endure any at all. This is the sort of stuff I could get on any number of right liberal/libertarian websites, not something entertaining in its wrongness.

I make no apologies for not being left-wing enough. I don’t much care if something’s left-wing or right-wing, it’s more interesting to look at what works and what doesn’t. I accept that the OP was a bit careless in places, and if it’s tone is unsuitable for this site, then I do apologise for that – I just think it’s interesting, and very frustrating, that a generally competent Socialist (capital S) government refuses to contemplate much-needed reform for largely symbolic reasons.

Anyway … if you don’t agree, fair enough, doesn’t make me wrong – my opinion does count for something, I have many years experience in the private and public sectors in different countries, including the UK and Spain.

In Spain, as well-meaning as the employee-rights rules are, they contribute to a situation where there is chronic unemployment (possibly reaching 20%), many people on perpetual temporary contracts (yes there are laws against this but they can be side-stepped), and employees and employers often treating each other dreadfully to either get a pay off, or avoid a pay off (you may dismiss these “stories” but I have heard and seen enough – including first-hand – to know it’s standard practice) and a stagnant job market.

I just think that this is unacceptable.

I also think that it’s unacceptable to avoid addressing this just because it involves slaying a Socialist sacred cow.

(Of course there is more to it than just this – there is very different work ethic and management culture and other factors).

Anyway, now I’m going down to the pool for a swim and sunbathe.

Sorry ty.

It’s perhaps worth noting that in the UK, with its post-Thatcher workers’-rights-averse culture, there are very many people on temporary contracts. They’re there because it suits employers to put them there, not because they have too many employment rights to make them worth taking on full-time.

It’s also worth noting that the idea that you can’t sack people in Spain is not really compatible with the fact of 20% unemployment, unless you think they’re all (or mostly) there due to firms closing down rather than laying off a portion of their staff.

It’s additionally worth noting that people in Spain, including the government, don’t prefer the Anglo-US model, not because enhanced employment rights are “a sacred cow” but because many people here prefer to do things this way. They look at the US and Britain and they see more poverty and inequality than they like, and they suspect that this won’t be addresed by employees being more vulnerable. They probably especially think this during a recession.

Inicdentally I don’t know anybody who, right now, is thinking “I think I’ll try and get myself sacked to get a pay-off”. I do know a lot of people who are losing their jobs or scared of it.

Anyway … if you don’t agree, fair enough, doesn’t make me wrong – my opinion does count for something, I have many years experience in the private and public sectors in different countries, including the UK and Spain.

The least charming of all appeals to authority are always staged in reference to the self.

I notice from the OP’s blog that they’re a supporter of UPyD, who are a fairly new liberal party with a really, really annoying line in how everybody’s a dinosaur but them. They remind me in a number of ways of the late and unlamented Progessive Democrats in Ireland, who used to push the same liberal-social-reforms-and-rightwing-economics bundle and then fail to udnerstand why its appeal didn’t go very far beyond the affluent liberal-minded metropolitans who were its most obvious beneficiaries.

Appealing to authority makes sense when you’re conveying that you actually know what you’re talking about, as opposed to just babbling on the internet.

And James, you lost all chance of people actually addressing your points, such as they are, when you arrived on the thread being a complete arse and throwing around insults.

Serious people don’t respond well to that sort of thing.

Appealing to authority makes sense when you’re conveying that you actually know what you’re talking about, as opposed to just babbling on the internet.

So because of the medium he is communicating through the structure of rationality shifts?

And James, you lost all chance of people actually addressing your points, such as they are, when you arrived on the thread being a complete arse and throwing around insults.

You’ve taken systematic efforts to raise the tone, clearly.

Serious people don’t respond well to that sort of thing.

No, I have to settle for you.

@46 ejh
Incidentally I don’t know anybody who, right now, is thinking “I think I’ll try and get myself sacked to get a pay-off”. I do know a lot of people who are losing their jobs or scared of it.
I concur. Totally. The amount of Catalans I know who’ve lost their jobs with their firms still alive & kicking is terrifying. So much for “impossibility to sack”…

—
Like I said at the top of this thread, zhisou, nothing personal on my part. You actually seem a really nice geezer. It’s just that the OP contains a staggering amount of unsubstantiated opinions.

Exactly the same as say, me writing one that goes: “Capitalism in Greece is turning nastier. There are plenty of stories of workers saying that they’ve had enough. They’re being treated like scum which is the epitomy of the centre-right’s failed management of the economy. The centre-right gvmnt have failed to tackle endemic corruption” etc etc. Fine in a conversation, but not in an article. That’s my humble opinion.

It’s this I object to. Credit to you for partly owning up to the fact bits were “careless in places” (understatement), but seriously in your line of reasoning there’s a logical fallacy after the other.

One is the equation you make: high unemployment=inflexible labour market which is, frankly, bollocks – and whether intentionally or otherwise, the same old skool trite propaganda typical of loaded people and bosses (see I’m carefully not saying right-wing as there are some self-professed left liberals who are also by default siding with the bosses come what may. A few on this site are fine evidence).

zishou

I frankly made quite an effort to reply to several of your remarks one by one without throwing insults or throaway comments.

Then you put:
[the current labour laws]contribute to a situation where there is chronic unemployment (possibly reaching 20%)
I already pointed out in #6 that the unemployment figures have finally began to go down. Your piece was mainly an attack on the PSOE which you clearly backtracked later on. The PSOE’s policies since the crisis started are starting to pay off.

I fail to see how making the sack easier would help in a crisis. You’d find that unemployment wuld probably shoot up to 34% if the Spanish CBI’s proposals were taken on board. Credit to the PSOE for not caving in to extensive pressure from the right.

many people on perpetual temporary contracts (yes there are laws against this but they can be side-stepped)
Many people on temporary contracts? Mate, the UK has got BY FAR the biggest number of casual/temping workers in the EU and it don’t look like Britain’s doing so fine in the crisis. Or does it?
ejh answered finely anyway here.

Oh not to have dosh. It would open the eyes of a few people…

Claude, you’ve told us nothing about your employment record so as far as me & Zishou & Aaron are concerned you’re just babbling.

I am, arent i?

Well, I would except that I value privacy and I don’t like the concept of blowing one’s own trumpet. Not that I’ve got much to blow. Well…

I have ten years management experience, significant financial training, and have worked with several successful start-up businesses. Surely my opinion counts for something?
Sorry, Aaron, bad call that one. You sound like an old boss of mine who everybody nicknamed “25-year-experience” said out loud at any opportunity while with the finger wagging like Regan from The Exorcist.

Courts almost always side with the employee in wrongful dismissal cases

I find myself yearning to see figures on this.