“Or at least not to be taken as a serious comment on Fitna.”

Au contraire – argument from scatology wouldn’t be a good way to consider a presentation, but if it merely leavens the scrutiny elsewhere I wholly embrace it.

Ben

I’ll try to address your comments more fully tomorrow – sorry I can’t be more coherent at the moment, but the words are merging into an eccentric mass of verbiage …pretty…

Anyway, yes…

“…you ought to apply the same space for nuance on the other side:, just saying:
“No, unlike Wilders, Dewinters et al. I won’t stoop to eliminationism”
is un-nuanced: from what I read there is clear water between Wilders and the others, as he doesn’t seem to be a fascist at all – (but is certainly not afraid to discuss the issue of culture change via immigration)..“

You’re right, to some extent – terms such as “et al” are always clumsy, and I shouldn’t have used it. However, the specific accusations are quite fair: Wilders is, I think undeniably, a bigot and authoritarian; supporting policies such as…

7. Have every member of a non-Western minority sign a legally binding contract of assimilation.

8. We need a binding pledge of allegiance in all Western countries.

9. Stop the building of new mosques.

It’s difficult to see the impositions upon “non-Western minorit[ies]” as anything but overtly racist.

The specific accusation of eliminationism related to…

4. Encourage voluntary repatriation.

“Are you saying that the Qu’ran is being mis-understood by the Islamic terrorists around the world? All of them.“

If you’re referring to the section titled “Intellectual Dishonesty” then no, that’s not what I was suggesting. What I was demonstrating was that Wilders methodically distorted quotes to ensure that they’d imply political relevance.

More in the ‘morrow,

Ben

or maybe I totally misread your Fitna piece – kicking off with: “I hold these truths to be self-evident…Geert Wilders is an arse” is maybe a clue that you wrote it tongue-in-cheek.

Or at least not to be taken as a serious comment on Fitna.

Are you saying that the Qu’ran is being mis-understood by the Islamic terrorists around the world? All of them.
You’ve quoted one scholar only, but mainstream islam builds on what Mohammed was (military and political leader), and what he did.
It’s mainstream Islam that he beheaded hundreds of unarmed jewish prisoners. That the theme of violence runs constantly through the Qur’an: reading the New Testament through and then the Qu’ran, it’s very clear that Jesus and Mohammed are polls apart.

There are just sooo many verses on bringing Islam about through violence in the Qu’ran- they are listed elsewhere, but just one:

“(9:29) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low’.

I don’t disagree with you saying “How much ideas and ideologies inspire acts is an interesting and very necessary issue, but it’s a debate that demagogues, bigots and entryists should be booted from.”

But I’d be interested to have that issue on the table here.

And although you argue that there is more “nuance” to be considered when looking at why Islamic people commit violence in Chechnya, Palestine and Iraq – you are right to inidcate that there are likely a range of reasons- but if you factor in the Islamic violence in Philipines, Thailand, Singapore, Germany and etc there is without doubt quite alot that all these people DO have in common, and indeed is common in their public statements.

But you ought to apply the same space for nuance on the other side:, just saying:
“No, unlike Wilders, Dewinters et al. I won’t stoop to eliminationism”
is un-nuanced: from what I read there is clear water between Wilders and the others, as he doesn’t seem to be a fascist at all – (but is certainly not afraid to discuss the issue of culture change via immigration).

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/05/23/towards-a-reasonable-discussion-on-immigration/

Interesting themes came –

I don’t know if such rational, unhysterical treatment is atypical or typical there, but as someone in the thread said:
“Edmund: that was one of your best.”

“I stand admonished.”

No problem.

“All this anti-Islamist stuff . JIhad Watch / Melanie Phillips / I.F.P.S /
Widers / and adinfinitum. Do you read it…”

I’ve read Jihad Watch and Melanie Phillips for the past few months, yes. It’s not always pleasant – rarely for the reasons they intend.

I’ve also had the dubious pleasure of watching Fitna – the best I can say for it is that it’s very short – and posted a review.

“…or just dismiss it out of hand as all part of a racistic right-wing hate frenzy,because of who knows who.?(Dr Strange Gaffney and how I learned to love the bomb ).”

I clearly don’t “dismiss it out of hand” because – and thangs for giving me a gift-wrapped opportunity to spam – I’ve spent a lot of time addressing it. In this very post I’ve dealt with the claims of Dewinters.

“Is it at all possible that like me, you have spent countless hours,recieving updates avaialble now to anyone with a computer and in your connection with Liberal Conspiracy, faced with literally a subject that dominates the news with ever increasing

intensity ( globally ),and yet you give the impression of being totally oblivious to it.”

To answer erratically, I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “connection with Liberal Conspiracy” – I read and comment, and they’ve kindly published this post; that’s it.

Political Islam doesn’t “dominate the news” – although, considering the state of British journalism, it wouldn’t mean much if it did. One of the problems with the “counter-Jihadists” is that they ascribe any immoral or bewildering act by an Islamist – or, let’s be honest, Muslim – to their religion, rather than considering the context. Thus, one can be startled to find that conflicts in, say, Chechnya, Palestine and Iraq are reduced to the same theme. It’s political realism for dummies, and when that clumsiness is stripped away the issue becomes rather less urgent and rather more nuanced.

As for being “oblivious“, well, no. A mere year-and-a-bit ago I saw political Islam as a very grave threat, hoarsely castigating the bearded sharia-considering one and describing Islamism – all forms of it; the whole kaboodle – as fascism. It’s partly that I was a spittle-flecked, generalising fool that’s led me to oppose spittle-flecked, generalising foolery.

How much ideas and ideologies inspire acts is an interesting and very necessary issue, but it’s a debate that demagogues, bigots and entryists should be booted from. Otherwise, the subject becomes – well, has become – fraught with hysteria and shot through with propaganda. Similarly, opposing coercive powers and ideologies is always necessary, but I’m not going to link hands with people who’d just prefer to impose their own.

(If, by that question, you simply meant “have you wasted too much time on the internet” then God yes.)

“For some reason, the Zen analogy of “one hand clapping “comes to mind here,as if–if we magically erradicated the Islamophobes and Vlaams Belang–political radical Islam would vanish into the mist…”

No, unlike Wilders, Dewinters et al. I won’t stoop to eliminationism. Moreover, I don’t believe that ‘cos it’s clearly pish.

G’night,

Ben

First off,Let me say that you are correct in that I attacked a few statements which I pecieved to be typical stances of the left,and not something actually put forth by you which is “bad form ” and unfair. I stand admonished.
Yes I did conceed that “Islam is not like Der Fuhrer waiving his hand and a billion minions jump on the shovel. (At the moment )”.
And to the contrary;Widers draws a comparison between Nazism,Communism and Islam.
The descrepancy between the two statements.I believe takes us into the (once again) – almost abstract “micro–analysis”, as in
What is this assumed threat? What can we compare it to? Is it somewhat like Nazism?,( are they white and wear jack-boots? )
Not like Nazism at all? ,75% like Nazism?Not a threat at all ? Is it a Monolith–Multi headed-semi-conscious entity.? ( sounds like headless chicken paralysis syndrome )
Is there really such a chasm of perception between you and me.?
How can any age of enlightenment defend itself from any threat , when absolute moral untainted purity must be attained before daring to risk any ” discriminátory judgement ,
or condemnation.?( do you remember The word “discriminatory judgement” )

Just out of curiosity. All this anti-Islamist stuff . JIhad Watch / Melanie Phillips / I.F.P.S /
Widers / and adinfinitum. Do you read it or just dismiss it out of hand as all part of a racistic right-wing hate frenzy,because of who knows who.?(Dr Strange Gaffney and how I learned to love the bomb )
Is it at all possible that like me, you have spent countless hours,recieving updates avaialble now to anyone with a computer and in your connection with Liberal Conspiracy, faced with literally a subject that dominates the news with ever increasing
intensity ( globally ),and yet you give the impression of being totally oblivious to it.

“its not up to me to show why I shouldn,t worry about Islamic immigration,or for that matter any other immigration–it;s up to others to show why I should.”

I shall endevour to do my best.

For some reason, the Zen analogy of “one hand clapping “comes to mind here,as if–if we magically erradicated the Islamophobes and Vlaams Belang–political radical Islam would vanish into the mist.
Anyway -best regards to everyone at L.C.
Goodnight.

.

The idea of Harry’s Place promoting “Reasonable Discussion” is somewhat like Guido Fawkes advocating giving all politicians a long hug.

Harrys Place….May 23rd May
“Towards a Reasonable Discussion on Immigration”.

Journeyman…

“We all know , thank Zeus,that Islam is not like –Der Fuhrer waiving his hand and a billion minions jump on the shovel.( At the moment )…”

We do? Well, this should come as news to, say, Geert Wilders, whose film closes with the words…

“In 1945, Nazism was defeated in Europe.

In 1989, Communism was defeated in Europe.

Now, the Islamic ideology has to be defeated.”

It should also come as a shock to the makers of Obsession, who featured Walid Shoebat blathering that “Nazism is less dangerous than this Islamofascism that we see today“, and warned of “several Nazi Germanys if they get their way.“

“Some kind of either or argument , like “Ah-ha we did it , you see we have just proven that some Anti-Islamist group has exhibited racially inclined tendencies,which means that the problem is not Islam,but some primitive, racial hysteria or perhaps evil, power mongering individuals, manipulating the ignorant masses for their own personal gain.”

Indeed…but then, I, er, haven’t used that argument.

And then comes the “moral equivalence” Timothy Mc Veigh—see we have nutters to.

Another argument that’s tantalisingly absent from my post.

The thing I love about ” progressives” ( I hate the pretentious title ) is the platinum-gold plated guarantees we are given,that there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

I’d hesitate to call myself a progressive, but if you’re referring to me, well, yes there are many things to worry about: environmental disaster, civil liberties, elite power structures, the expansionism of imperial states, the…am I depressing anyone yet? It’s not up to me to show why I shouldn’t worry about Islamic immigration – or, for that matter, any other kind of immigration – it’s up to others to show why I should.

“Whataboutery” and straw people littered all over the place…

“Infact if it wasn,t for organisations like I.F.P.S..nobody would..certainly not Liberal Conspiracy.”

Oh dear.

And you’ll have to do a lot better if you want to clean up the image of the openly racist, xenophobic Progress Party.

Although they are trying to be slightly cunning – countering a recent drop in support by proposing legalising euthanasia (although scant details, so it could just be slipping-in an extension of Norway’s previous eugenics programme by the back door). Trying to reposition themselves as “civil libertarians” is a smart move – until some of their representatives open their mouths and start spouting their more familiar lines, of course…

Norweigan Imam,Asgar Ali, member on the board of the Norweigan governing labour party,and the 36.000 member IT and electronics union,could not oppose death for homosexuals earlier this month,and is awaiting a decision from the “European Fatwa Council “before coming to any decision.

Now you know why the Progress party in Norway are as you say”such a fun bunch”.
If the Norweigan Green Party and Red Party got of their arses, but no,that would be white surpremacist,racism.
Adious.

No ,he did mean Eurabia:

IN 1995 there was a ministerial meeting at the highest level in Barcelona,with representatives from all E;U nations; the European Council and from Morroco,Algeria,Tunisia; Egypt; Israel;Jordan ; Lebanon and Turkey ( population 280 million ) with the specific aim of integrating ,starting 2010 ,these countries into th E.U.

The amount the E,U is now sending to these countries to improve their infrastructure would be substantially increased.
There would be free movement of labour within this sphere.
Govermental,N.G.O:Educational and Media organisations would work toghether to erradicate xenophobia,racism and promote “cultural enrichment” in Europe.
With emphasis on respect for Islam.
This full details of this treaty were available only to those aware of its existence.
By tapping Barcelona Process into their computer.

” An interesting angle is how much of this far right networking has been supported by American right wingers,through groups like the International Free Press Society:”

Fascination question. I believe I.F.P.S was founded by a Dane called Lars Hedegaard, following the Danish Cartoon circus.
´The main concern of this organisation seems to be the ever increasing relentless attempts to restrict freedom of speech in western society, in deference to a tiny-iditty-bitty minority of a highly sensitive privileged religion. (Under pain of threats,violence and dry petrol pumps ).
These restrictions demanded at the last U.N meeting by the (57 member state O.I.C )
“defamation of Islam “.
Met with theatrical , protest by our goverments–for our benefit,but followed by sly wink and a nod in the other direction. ( Sharia Finance for the Right Wing Corporationists )
And met with a deafening silence from the entire..non-American,non-right-wing,progressive movement.
I would be more worried if nobody was bothering at all.
Infact if it wasn,t for organisations like I.F.P.S..nobody would..certainly not Liberal Conspiracy.

It is , and it is,nt ( a grand imperial monolithic consciousness) I know that,you know that,and even ( the enemy ) the counter-jihadists know that.
We all know , thank Zeus,that Islam is not like –Der Fuhrer waiving his hand and a billion minions jump on the shovel.( At the moment )
But while we are discussing,what a monolith,consciousnes,movement is,is,nt, and just how centralized,and conspiratorial and seditious is, or not–in relation to Communism;Nazism, and 14th century Christianity,perhaps it would be more productive to examine the effect present and future that this monolith,non-monolith,conscious or completely unconcious entity has and will have on our democratic,liberal, tolerant ,—political,social,and economic fabric .

I don,t believe in the argument of “symmetric opposites”.
Some kind of either or argument , like “Ah-ha we did it , you see we have just proven that some Anti-Islamist group has exhibited racially inclined tendencies,which means that the problem is not Islam,but some primitive, racial hysteria or perhaps evil, power mongering individuals, manipulating the ignorant masses for their own personal gain.”

So there,the problem is not Islam,because Islam doesn,t really exist. It has no Head Office. Its just a figment of our imagination.
And then comes the “moral equivalence” Timothy Mc Veigh—see we have nutters to.
And then we have the ” cultural relativity”–Islam is just one more culture and all culture are the same, infact our culture is despicable and we must atone for the sins of our fathers.
The thing I love about ” progressives” ( I hate the pretentious title ) is the platinum-gold plated guarantees we are given,that there is absolutely nothing to worry about.
They claim the demographic projections are misleading because,just like us ,the birth rate will fall.
That just like other immigrants to western countries,they will merge into society.
I propose this; Your assurances cost you nothing if your wrong, but i can,t say the same for western society.
There is I percieve one paradoxical similarity between the left and the right concerning this matter,in that they both hope you assumptions are correct.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics/For-all-the-talk-of.5297703.jp

“At one stage he talks about how if the party had a more Aryan leader “who’s 6ft 2in and whose two eyes are blue … then they’d probably take the party further on”.

Oh, and “journeyman”, quoting a distopian, reeking-of-conspiracy-theorist-paranoia, evidence-free set of statements from an “unknown author”…most impressive.