No doubt the officer suspended for hittling Tomlinson will be looking for ‘mitigating circumstance’ and we’ll look at those in due course but there are no such circumstances which could excuse police officers hiding their identity (unless they have been specifically ordered to do so?) and they should be suspended immediately.

It’s a shame that this is no surprise really.

Am I a bit stupid to be disappointed by the IPCC behaviour?

Is it obvious that they have always been patsies?

The IPCC is clearly thinking about the prejudicial effect on disclosure of a subsequent criminal trial. They’ve always got to be a little cautious on this.

The IPCC have yet to interview all the police witnesses to the events that led to Ian Tomlinson’s death — they suspect that the excellent Ch4 video analysis could taint officers’ recollections (or presumably, assist in a cover-up).

@cjcjc — It’s been obvious to much of the ‘cynical left’ for years that the purpose of the IPCC is to ‘dispose’ of allegations without causing any embarrassment to the police.

So now it’s a head injury, eh ?

First it was a heart attack.

Then significant abdominal bleeding was reported.

Now it’s raised intra-cranial presumably from a torn meningeal artery.

Did both pathologists miss this injury (the blown pupil must have been a give away, surely)

All I will say is that the idea of the police investigating themselves is as reassuring as the NHS complaints procedure.

‘prejudicial effect’ – bizarre that this isn’t taken into account when ‘terrorist suspects’ are arrested.

I think that, unlike Lee, for the first time in this whole case I am genuinely shocked. I never believed the original version of events, but how on earth have they got away with hiding the head injury? Did Cary miss this as well? Or did he not miss it but just not consider it cause of death?

“Blown pupil”. Ugh. Is this why Sky fuzzed out his eyes on their picture? Or would one do that anyway out of respect for the dead? And could – double ugh – putrefaction have made the blown pupil less obvious a week after death?

As for the IPCC, they seem to be playing an incredibly odd double game. From concealment and co-operation with the police in the first days, to all-guns-blazing attacks now. Could be either distancing themselves because they realise they’ve been rumbled as police patsies, or they were being unwillingly muzzled all along and are finally breaking away from their former masters with much bitterness. Either way, the “I” in IPCC is clearly a goner.

I’ll end up being surprised if the third post mortem does turn out to say it was linked in any way, for the same reasons as you Alix. The sky news report doesn’t actually state that the findings suggest he died of a head injury..since they haven’t released their analysis yet. All it does is take a picture and point out the obvious (since he landed on his head at least once)

I defer to A&E on this one – but I am not, in the slightest, surprised it has taken three post mortems to get this far.

As for the police investigating themselves – well…

After this episode the IPCC should gradually take a back burner and a new, truly independent, body should be set up with real powers – and not associated with the police.

Will – what does not seem to be disputed is that Mr Tomlinson collapsed and died quickly.

He was reported to have diseased coronary arteries but the 2nd coroner did not think he had suffered a heart attack.

Intra-abdominal bleeding was then reported although the SITE of the bleed (spleen ? aorta ?) was not reported – if death occurred quickly then blood loss must have been very rapid.

Now it seems Mr Tomlinson suffered a head injury as well ?
Rapid death from head injury usually results from a torn artery – pulsatile blood loss leads to rise in intra-cranial pressure (the skull is a closed box) – bleeding from a vein progresses at a slower rate, at least to begin with.
As the region of bleeding expands the pupil becomes fixed and dilated (because the occular nerve is squashed by the ever growing blood clot).

The plot thickens ?

The plot thickens ?

Indeed.

But what is throwing me off on this is the fact that he bruised so quickly – now I know a smack on the ground will bring about bruisng pretty quickly, but to have that much in just a matter of minutes?

I’ve been pissed enough to fall over and whack my head but the bruising didn’t really appear until the next day after a crap slumber.

With that kind of force wouldn’t it be reasonable to check the head for a fracture and see if there was internal bleeding within the skull?

The degree of force IS a factor (obviously) but so is region – blows around the temple are notorious for causing an artery to sheer.

This is a crucial point because an artery PUMPS blood while a vein leaks.
An artery can still be torn even after a relatively innocuous mechanism – we see this in A&E when somebody has suffered a blow to the side of the head (such as a boot, or fall to the ground).

Another possibility is that Ian Tomlinson suffered an earlier injury (so was already bleeding) and this would have been compounded by the final blows that knocked him to the floor.

Perhaps I’d better shut up now until we have a definitive report from the pathologist.

A&E

I’ve checked and re-checked the photos available of him from his earlier contacts with the police and there isn’t a mark on him – that I can see – so, and in presume mode, we have to take it that it was that shove that did this to him.

I agree we will have to wait – but as this autopsy was done at his solicitors request – it isn’t looking at all good for the copper.

This family man may have lived in a hostel maybe a millwall fan and maybe a yob who would not move on when requested. What was he doing there the man on the Clapham omnibus would wonder. He was very unluky but not as unluky as De Menzies

‘prejudicial effect’ – bizarre that this isn’t taken into account when ‘terrorist suspects’ are arrested.

Sunny, quite. And the Channel 4 news seems rather less prejudicial than the PM, Home Secretary, and the Met, all claiming that they have just stopped the Nastiest Terrorist Plot Ever TM, and newspapers falling over themselves to print it.

commonsense @ 16 – can you tell me how Tomlinson’s location or lack of movement justified the use of such (prima facie unlawful) force?

Dear uk Liberty,
What force he was PUSHED quite deservedly so, his attitude was of a middle aged football yob. Hands in pocket surly, the post mortem MAYeventually show that heavy drinking and alcoholism probaly led to his death. He had already STOOD in front of a Police van and would not get out of the way. He did not deserve to die, he was just terribly unlucky. if it wasnt for the police a small minority would have wrecked parts of central london.
To the Metgropolitan Police carry on pushing please

Yeah, keep pushing, right until Commonsense feels the rather unwanted effects of that kind of attitude.

Commonsense

What force he was PUSHED

You answer your own question. Now please answer mine.

It is so easy to sit in youyr armchair or pore over a newspaper report with a magnifying glass the next day looking for missing epaulettes or other evidence of police brutality.
Try keeping a load of trouble makers from wrecking what I have fought so long for:- the right for people to demonbstrate peacefully with the best police force in the world accompanying them. who are doing their best to contain the angry young men and even worse the angry young women intent on baying, spitting painting themsleves with blood red paint etc at police long enough for one of them to get a little exasperated.
Yes he should not have pushed him How long had he been on duty listening to a crowd intent on trying to get a reaction out of the finest police in the world, they were successful a couple of police officers over re-acted.
Try living in another country.
PS I am off to bed but will be looking at this blog tommorrow to see if a little commonsense can be imparted on the liberal minded articulate members of our society who dont know how lucky they are

Commonsense, you write that protestors were…

“…intent on baying, spitting painting themsleves with blood red paint etc at police long enough for one of them to get a little exasperated.”

Instead of placing all your sympathy in the police “get[ting a little exasperated" and pushing, clubbing, charging etc., it'd seem more reasonable to sympathise with the demonstrators. They, after all, faced greater provocation; penned in without food, water or toilet facilities, despite - largely, at least - committing no crimes. That some were driven to shouting, swearing etc. is, I must say, understandable.

It's difficult, I should add, to grasp why "angry young women" are "worse" than men. Or, indeed, why the "eas[iness]” of pointing out police brutality negates concerns. Or, now that I’m here, how you know that “if it wasnt for the police a small minority would have wrecked parts of central london“. Or, now that I’m on a roll, how a surly attitude justifies the use of force.

Best,
BenSix

I thought that Commonsense was just a raving nutter but now that he’s pointed out that protestors were painting themselves ‘blood red’ I can see why London’s finest flew into a homicidal rage.

They’ll be painting themselves with wode next and shouting ‘Ye cannae tek oor freedem!’

Commonsense @22,

Yes he should not have pushed him

Well, you don’t know that. He might have honestly believed that force was necessary and proportionate. We must presume innocence.

But in the general case:

If I push you I have committed common assault.

If I push you, you hit your head on the ground and die as a result, I’ve committed involuntary manslaughter (I didn’t have intent to kill or cause GBH). You might like to look up “one punch manslaughter”. Say, R v Furby.

Your points about surliness, baying, spitting, and paint are insufficient justification for my use of force.

Police officers are supposed to be trained professionals bound by the same laws as the rest of us. Curiously however we non-police are far more likely to face such charges despite our lack of training in such terms as knowing one’s strength and also being able to resist provocation.

Note that I am not engaging in blanket condemnation.

LMFAO @ Shatter.

Commonsense(?)

I hope to Christ that the day doesn’t come when those crowds are pushed past the tolerance level.

If that day should come we will see a number of innocent officers taking a severe beating – for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

We liberals are not just for the justice for Ian – although that is what this thread is about – but also for the poor sods in the police force who, if it does happen, will be almost beaten to death if the crowd should lose control. A few hundred police trying to hold back thousands of protesters will not be a pretty sight if it goes tits up.

I read a post by a serving army squaddie who went through crowd control – he said, and I agree with him, always allow a way out for the crowd that will defuse a lot of the anger, bottle it up and it will blow eventually.

If you watch the videos you see that the protesters helped Ian up – and when he had collapsed you can see protesters telling the gathering crowd to back away. One, plastic bottle was thrown and the thrower was chastised by the crowd – that was self-discipline by the crowd.

We do not need another poll-tax riot. But that is just my opinion.

Dear Uk Liberty
Thank you for pointing our R v Furby, none of them were trying to protect us and trying to clear the streets so that the the rest of London could get home or get from A to B. I actually support
the G20 protest (Did you see the last G20 protesters in the City of London. They really did so much for the cause by attacking Police and property. (I don’t think so)
Please demonstrate peacefully. should this police officer face any triall other than internal disci-line then God help us, when the officers on Riot squat or Shield officeres state they will no longer do a job where they will be open to prosecution where they MAY have to use force to bring the streets back to order.
Let commonsense prevail. Police Officers MUST be beyond approach like some of our politicians, and leaders we all make mistakes do NOT pillory this police officer.
The law is not always an Ass but it can be. I hope the Jury is made up of reasonable people.

Commonsense,

should this police officer face any triall other than internal disci-line then God help us, when the officers on Riot squat or Shield officeres state they will no longer do a job where they will be open to prosecution where they MAY have to use force to bring the streets back to order.

Um, no-one is suggesting the police shouldn’t use any force. What I am suggesting is that the force must be necessary and proportionate to be lawful, and that the police should not be using unlawful force.

In simple terms, the police may not assault or kill people on a whim. You appeared to agree with this, when you wrote “Yes he should not have pushed him”.

I’d rather have the few nutters in the police who do want to assault people to quit if they don’t want to risk prosecution. The public and the police will be better off.

(and the police tactics at G20 were questionable to say the least.)

Will Rhodes @27:

I hope to Christ that the day doesn’t come when those crowds are pushed past the tolerance level. If that day should come we will see a number of innocent officers taking a severe beating – for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That’s it, that’s it exactly. Most police constables are good lads and lasses trying to do a shitty job that desperately needs doing. They need to be calm, they need to be professional, they need to be effective and they need to be restrained. That’s what they teach access security agents: and when I say ‘they’ I mean retired coppers, for the most part. I don’t want the UK to see a real summer of rage; I don’t want to see the street bobbies take the beatings that are being aimed, and deservedly so, at their political masters.

As you point out later, and as I and several others have been shouting about as well, the only purpose to kettling a crowd which shows no signs of mob activity (and Commonsense, if you can’t tell the difference between the happy-slapping at RBS and the invasion of Climate Camp, you haven’t been paying attention) is to cause a riot. Anyone who’s been through a third-world coup d’etat knows perfectly well that you always leave one side of Independence Square [1] open. If you block all the exits, a shouting crowd will turn into a murderous mob as they realise they can’t run when the tear-gas starts flying.

You deal with mob violence by dispersing the crowd; they then turn back into individual humans and start thinking. Holding over a thousand people in one short street for nearly 6 hours and repeatedly charging them with batons from both ends is not a strategy intended to calm people down. There is absolutely no way that the Gold, Silver and Bronze commanders, being senior and experienced police officers, were unaware of this. Therefore, the intent was to start a riot.

[1] Or Black Star Square in the case of the country I grew up in. And yes, this kind of thing has happened to me. As has being on the wrong end of a race riot that started because I was white in the wrong place at the wrong time.

How long does it take to carry out the 3rd post motem of Mr Tomlinson? Where are the results?

How long does it take to carry out the 3rd post motem of Mr Tomlinson? Where are the results?

The 3rd post mortem was performed at the request of lawyers representing the police officer already suspended pending investigations, not the IPCC.
If it had produced a wildly different conclusion to the second, you can bet you’d have heard about it by now.
(And the first discredited post mortem was performed by a coroner with prior form for following police ‘hints’.)

Suspect the thug in uniform with no I.D. and obscuring his face,is now in ‘depression and stress’ as a result of his seemingly unprovoked attack .still he can count on being sent on holiday,to help in his recovery,,,,,,,, JUST LIKE THE ONE’s who Killed Menendez. Fancy no I.D. I’ve always been informed that if you’ve nothing to hide you’ve nothing to fear!

Commonsense.
Don’t you read,or can’t you read. He was trying to get home and he tried all other avenues where he was also beaten by TSG officers,several times. He was not a YOB and a football shirt,of any body’s,does NOT constitute a hooligan. It seems as a result of inappropriate handling viz a viz.,beating him up,several times lays clearly at the TSG’s feet,the blame for his death,jointly and severally of all officers who manhandled and beat him during the hour he tried to get to the safety of his home.

For God’s sake keep up Commonsense, (Euphamism)
Get someone to put you back in your Jack-in-a-Box and clip the hasp securely.
You’re not winding anybody up because we all know you’re a twit.(Apologies for using the wrong vowel in that last word.)

I think “beating him up by the TSG” dramatises the push, and I am not sure about the baton that swung at his legs is beating him up. I have seen these protesters close up and their intention is to bait the police and smash the windows of offices (A criminal offence but of course that doesn’t matter our main concern is to goad the police into a reaction.
I support the G20 principle it is a pity that those smashing the windows of the RBS Office with a metal pillar, without any concern for who might be inside and smashing windows generally must share some of the blame. Police MUST be allowed to clear the streets and use proportainate force to do so.
I hope you are all ready for the next demo where the police will NOT clear the Streets will NOt put their hands on anybody for fear of landing up in court and maybe losing their job. We can look to the Liberals who support this forum to come up with another way to clear the streets prevent criminal damage and protect the rest of us from the mob

First they came for the demonstrators,after they shot they commuter,then they killed the young girl by driving at 94 mph.the speeding ticket came automatically,but i could get help for my daughter after a serious assault,no. then they raided parliament,then they started killing each other,and all the time i did nothing ,will when they come for me?

You get the police you deserve. The Police Should not have pushed somebody who would not clear the street, I now think they should have pushed him and anybody else, . Anybody tried driving around Pariiament Square recently. You cant, because the Police wont clear the Tamils because they fear ending up in court for pushing a demonstrator. Why dont they enforce the sessional order of Parliament, which states that no demos or assembly must take place within I think 200 metres but I stand to be corrected whilst Parliament is sitting. Now the Police wont do what they are lawfully charged to do so, Thanks to the Liberty types who people this web pag and other Liberals. Get on your biccyles with your open toed sandals and beards and try to find this utophia outside Hampstead

Oh Yeah
Do you think they raided Paerliament without getting in touch with the Home Secretary Jacuy
Smith or whoeveer. The Speaker was aware and then blamed a junior officer.Do you not think somebody in the Labour party instigated this enquiry, The Tories are releasing or obtaining information and publishing it which we dont like. Met Police can you raid this tory who is doing what Gordon Brown and many others have been doing for years.
Sorry to hear about your daughter,i expect the Police were in Parliament Square not Pushing or touching anybody who is blockng the street. Of course they have a good cause but I would like to get to work and go about my business.

“Anybody tried driving around Pariiament Square recently.”

Park and walk.

De Mensies must have been the unluckiet man in the world.
He came here via Eire which is an established route to get into this country without permits etc. He having been refuseed an application to stay here.
He was late for work if he had left on time he would have probably gotr there OK.
The Police Firearms crew were not in place to stop all suspects as required by Commander McDonnell now promoted. nobody told McDonnell that the Firearms officers were not in position.
He got off the bus to go to Brixton Tube Station. The tube station was closed so he had to get back on the bus this made all the police watching very suspicious (Another great slice of bad luck). He looked a little bit like one of the bombers. He got on the same tube station Stockwell as the bomber did the day before. Another slice of bad luck. The Police radois dont work in the Underground I believe they do now, when the confusing orrder came “Stop him from getting on to the tube” Now that was a cock up. it does not compare with pushing a surly gentlemen who only wanted to get back to his hostel

so what really is your gripe common judge … why does the police man have a home and mr Tomlinson a hostel why do the police domesticly violent alchoholics suffer from stress and Mr Tomlinson is credited with What by you… being a bum in a football shirt ?If a bunch of yobs were treating you like the scum you seemingly are wouldnt you be surly…The Murdering scumbag who sneaked up behind mr Tomlison propelled him violently towards the ground he deliberately pushed him off his feet.He changed his position so he could not be seen like the coward he is…He struck him without justification and then threw him to the ground…talking about the protests and protesteors is of no relevance whatsoever.. the police new full well he wasnt a protestor.. so what relevance is that.he was killed because he was sullen and uncooperative.The officers who did nothing who didnt restrain their colleague who didnt write him up for censure or disciplinary action… the ones who saw nothing the ones who didnt complain… are all complicit in this crime…. And all your bleating red neck response changes nothing after the fact Mr Tomlinson was killed beacuse of the dirty stinking Worthless EGO of a BULLY in uniform… a bully that you applaude and support.

Dear Zen Fast,
If people stand in the street when police are trying to clear it we will end up like we are at Parliament Square, with roads blocked by women and children and the rest of us unable to get to work. They must be allowed to use such force as is necessry to uphold the law. I want Police like the bully you talk about to help me when I am burgled assaulted, my children (God forbid) interfered with to attend my house. Please do not refer to the police officer as a stinking worthless bully it demeans you and does not add to the debate.
I am not red necked I go by the title of Commonsense, I want the law upheld and the streets cleared after a peacefuly demonstration. The G20 do themselves little good by attacking the Police the RBS or McDonalds. It makes the rest of us ANTI when we should be considering that Multi national corporations are starving small african villages etc etc b y their methods