This shows the extent to which it has always been a project driven by and for an elite who do what tey want and ask afterwards as many times as is required Labour and Conservatives were involved but the villain in chief was indeed Heath..

I get a very decent wage for the hours I do. I would still get a living wage if I worked fewer hours, I just prefer the extra cash.

“Look, I want to address the point you are making about freedom of capital and the relative lack of freedom of labour, but you are making it very difficult.”

I think the problem we have here is that my original point on this issue was aimed at something that sally said. She appeared to paint about 70% of people in this country as “right-wing” for opposing mass immigration but not free movement of goods. I should have just ignored the trolling.

This is what ‘joined up government’ entails: absolute power over every aspect of your life.

You really aren’t up for metaphor, are you? It is pretty obvious that if you really, really did work your fingers to the bone then you’d be dead of gangrine or some such, shortly thereafter. So, my metaphor failed.

Let me try to work through this.

You say:

The firm where I work would be severely damaged if a 48 hour week limit were introduced.

Can I suggest to you that they ought to be paying a living wage for reasonable hours, and not expecting anyone to have to do ridiculous hours to feel worthwhile? Can I suggest that you are, in fact, being exploited?

Let me tell you a story.

I had a friend that worked for a company called, oh, I conveniently forget. They had a base in Ayrshire, and he bloody loved them. And I do believe he made a tad more than the national average wage. .And they worked him to a joke of what I imagine he once was – take that as read – just before they pulled out. He was just as ambitious as I suspect you are. And he ended up dead at 59. Dead before his time and worn out through loyalty.

We had him for the last few years of his life, and never ever did he say a word against the company that had killed him. Stockholm syndrome, we called it

Onwards and upwards:

Look, I want to address the point you are making about freedom of capital and the relative lack of freedom of labour, but you are making it very difficult.

You say:

How about addressing the point rather than making silly comments?

because you are some sort of silly comment yourself. As far as I can see. It seems to me that when it comes to emmigration, we are quite satisfied, we the Brits should be able to retire to Spain or Italy or wherever we like.

You said:

Indeed, many in the UK diaspora name immigration as a reason for emmigrating!

As though that was some sort of victory for common sense, or something.

Do you not see the fundamental iniquity of that?

I may want to go to Europe, but fuck these Europeans coming here.

It is a perpetrated nonsense, on here and elsewhere.

Look, I am asking you to look out for yourself, and not buy into a masochistic relationship with an exploitative employer.

For they’ll be around far after you.

Look for a better job.

Part of the intention is to “create a level playing field” economically among EU nations but I would argue that such a result is a) impossible and b) undesirable.

Neither a supra-state authority nor a national government (nor anybody else) should legitimately be able to dictate to me how many hours I contract to work for my employer. That is a personal matter between me and them and there is no coercion involved on either side.

Provided the contract created does not harm the public good (and it does not) it is a consensual contractual arrangement freely entered into by both parties and the ability to transact such contractual agreements is a fundamental human right.

It’s simple really.

I recognise the counter-arguments, I just happen to have philosophical, practical and personal objections to them. I don’t believe it is the government’s or EU’s business to limit hours, I believe ending the op-out would harm our economy and I’m damn sure ending the op-out would negatively affect me, and I ain’t one of your capitalist exploiters.

I don’t work my fingers to the bone, it’s just that the nature of my work sometimes requires me to work longer than 9:30-5:30. This may be because I either have to work non-stop or because the afternoon is quiet and then work arrives in the evening. The firm where I work would be severely damaged if a 48 hour week limit were introduced. The employer-employee relationship doesn’t interest me, I just resent being told how many hours I can work. I do not feel exploited, I get paid a decent amount for working the hours I do, an amount that would go down if this legislation was introduced.

“But you move on, don’t you? By post 31, you are a committed slave”

Nope, if I wanted to I could move to a job with nicer hours and less work. Problem is I wouldn’t get paid as much. That’s the great thing about the current op-out we have, I get to choose.

“Post 47: You have your own plans, ha ha., ‘Just let me move my gold, master.’”

How about addressing the point rather than making silly comments?

“Which I think truly says what a completely wrong headed person you actually are. I bet none of the UK diaspora living throughout Europe would agree with a word of that. ”

How am I wrong-headed for factually pointing out that opinion poll show a majority in this country are opposed to uncontrolled immigration despite the fact that the majority of the population is certainly not right-wing? Indeed, many in the UK diaspora name immigration as a reason for emmigrating!

“Avoid the heart attack and you’ll be fine, mate. And stuff the common working man.”

No chance of a heart attack, my hours aren’t THAT long. And I have no wish to stuff the common working man, I’ve always found him to be a very sensible person. Indeed, many small-businessmen earn no more than the “common working man” and would be damaged by the opt-out being ended. It isn’t just the rich who have to work long hours.

You really are advocating your opinions without recognising any counter-arguements, aren’t you?

You have completely avoided the question of the inherent lack of balance between employer and employee, in any modern era economy, haven’t you? This was a failing, starting around post 2., when you started to want to work your fingers to the bone on behalf of your employer:

The EU wants to prevent me from working more than 48 hours a week.

But you move on, don’t you? By post 31, you are a committed slave:

Some of us like to work longer hours to (a) receive more money and (b) compete with our rivals. Restrictions on working hours unjustifiably prevent us from doing either of these.

Post 32: Yess…Master.

One way to compete is to work longer hours – it allows you to get more work done for clients in a shorter period of time.

Post 39: – two quotes, just for variety:

If a 48 hour week was adopted salaries would go down and business would be lost.

and

Then find a way to prevent exploitation that doesn’t involve shafting people who choose to work longer hours.

Post 47: You have your own plans, ha ha., ‘Just let me move my gold, master.’

Actually I think you’ll find restrictions on movements of people are popular across the population – about 70% in most opinion polls. I doubt that 70% are all right-wing. Conversely I suspect there is much less support for restrictions on capital – people don’t like being told how much money they can take abroad or being forced to pay more for cheap foreign goods.

Which I think truly says what a completely wrong headed person you actually are. I bet none of the UK diaspora living throughout Europe would agree with a word of that.

Money makes the world go ’round, etc…

Avoid the heart attack and you’ll be fine, mate. And stuff the common working man.

Can they combine to form a superior fighting force?

As I understand it Sally you and I are on the same side here so you have not picked the best moment to accuse LG or doctrinal impurity.

Hugs XX

No it is not true, but then I would not expect you to undertand. No, not the great fence sitter of old England. There is never a Tory troll that Lee won’t go out of his way to defend. The great university debater who believes in absolute nothing except that the quality of the debate must be paramount. Becuase anything else means making a stand or taking sides, and poor little Lee can’t do that.

So I accept some of what you say but you are playing a game with time The left of the Labour Party then were the most opposed to Europe . By the time of Masstricht the Conservative Party were certainly a lot more Euro-sceptic than Labour and today they are the only Party that cares about national sovereignty at all. Its an interesting tale ,but the fact is it has happened, and a long time ago.The Conservative Party are now in the happy position of reflecting the views of the British people while the other two have to lie and obfuscate

Actually we’re saying that they can have total access to our markets too. How is that unfair? They don’t put taxes on our imports, we don’t put taxes on theirs.

“It is the old right wing demand of free movement of capital, but not people.”

Actually I think you’ll find restrictions on movements of people are popular across the population – about 70% in most opinion polls. I doubt that 70% are all right-wing. Conversely I suspect there is much less support for restrictions on capital – people don’t like being told how much money they can take abroad or being forced to pay more for cheap foreign goods.

By the way, are you capable of arguing without shouting and insulting everyone? You seem to have one mother-sized chipon your shoulder judging by the nature of most of your posts.

Well that sounds solid and we all know how well EU law has meshed with UK law in the past don’t we
Explain to me then where this work will be coming from unless it is from the Company ? Explain how it will be that the Company is subject to virtually strict Liability for all employee injury , for example is discovered to have had people there all weekend as a regular practice and someone goes nuts and take them to court . You are sure are you that the fact the Company knew what was happening was inevitably complicit in it and allowed it will not get them into the picture .I think I might just want the opinion of someone who had an even better background than the none whatso-fucking -ever you bring to the table .

I `ve got a good idea , why not do something really radical and have debated in fucking Parliament where we can get some fucking scrutiny and see who is fucking responsible. Or is that a bit democratic for you ?

* he said sweetly *

Priceless! The Tory troll wants to lecture on a referendum.

Did the Tory party offer a referendum when they took us into the EU?
Did the Tory party offer a referendum when they signed the European single act?
Did the Tory party offer a referendum when they signed the Marstrict treaty?
NO, NO , and NO

The Tory party has NEVER offered the people of this country a referendum on Europe so their whining for a referendum now is classic Tory hypocrisy.

I spent a month working on secondment for a consulting firm in France. The idea that a company will be able to trade with long hours expected and avoid getting in the merde is *what fucking happens*.

Classic right wing free trade bullshit. “We demand the right to have total access to sell our goods in your country, but you can have no influence over our country. ”

It is the old right wing demand of free movement of capital, but not people.