In the early 60s , British engineers put forward the designs for motorbikes which the Japanese introduced in the 70s. In the early 60s , the electrical component of mechanical goods was more less just an off /on switch. If one looks at the elctronic components of the top end cars today – Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porche then it is now very significant. Consequently, a highly skilled and sufficiently large workforce is needed to support the German car industry. The components for the German cars are made in 1000s of small and medium sized , often family run firms.
In the UK we have a small highly skilled workforce which supports many of the Grand Prix teams( mainly around Witney and Silverstone ). The joint masters in car design between Imperial College and the Royal College of Art used to produce designers who were snapped up by car companies from around the World. The problem was that our inadequate education and training system does not produce enough skilled personnel to support a German car manufacturing capability both with respect to size and advanced technology. A degree in humanities from an ex-poly is not much use in aerodynamic or electronic design or constructing the initial prototypes( usually done by the best craftsmen).

In the 1960s , if all the left wing middle class humanities graduates had instead read engineering and technoloogy subjects , perhaps we would be like Germany: entering a recesion with £100s Billions in the black rather than £1Trillion in the red. When people talk of green technology, this will require people with advanced training in science and engineering . For example, a major problem with wave generated electrical power is corrosion of the bearings. A degree in cultural studies is unliley to be much use in solving this problem. I suggest a 75% reduction in all humanities education post 16 years of age and the money transferred to science and technology . Shakespeare , Bronte, Austen , Dickens , Kippling, Churchill and Orwell all finished their formal education by the age of 16. None of the investment in humanities education for those over 16 years of age since 1965 has produced any writer of comparable stature ;whereas the UK is still producing Nobel prize winning scientists , vast number of parents and people such as the dsigner of the iPod and Berners Lee of WWW fame. The education and training budget is primarily to benefit this country not just large numbers of mediocre middle class humanities graduates , the Labour Party and the public sector unions. In 1680 Britain was heavily in debt to France and had an economy half the size or less. Due to the technical skill , education ,hard work and innovation of those who started the industrial revolution (who were largely skilled craftsmen and tradesmen )by 1800 our economy was twice the size of France . 75% of the humanities graduates of today are like the scholarly clergymen of the 17 and 18 centuries versed in the classics and divinity : they are a break on the development of manufacturing in the UK.
Dennis Healey has just said half the civil service should be sacked .

A manufacturing based economy similar to Germany would do much to break down the gap between the rich and the poor in this country. The income of the skilled craftsmen would be higher than those in the Uk and the directors would be lower than the investment bankers here. In Germany many craftsmen earn £40K and directors are probably on £240K . Therefore wage differential is probably only 6x rather the 40 or 50 times in the UK ( average salary £25K and investment banker earning £1M).

When Labour came to power in times of prosperity and growth, work permits were running at 40k and that was before the open doors to Eastern Europe. In a recession year with rapid unemployment, they issued 150k work permits to non-EU migrants. British jobs for British people. LOL!

Your lies are exposed, we all know that mass immigration benefits the wealthy and punishes the poor and you will pay for it at the next election.

during the 70s and 80s, in the UK , approximately two thirds of the union membership was unskilled or semi-skilled. One of the reason Liverpool has suffered is that employment was largely unskilled and based upon the docks. Therefore when more advanced manfuacturing has developed, many people in Liverpool have lacked the relevant skills. This was a reason put forward by the late Eric Heffer , a MP represnting a Liverpool constituency . Birmingham contained far more skilled craftsmen than Coventry whose largest form of employment was semi-skilled car assembly. Therefore Birmingham suffered less in the collapse in manufacturing in the early 80s. By craftsmen I mean someone who has passed a 5 year apprenticship as minimum and preferably they have completed 2 additional years of more advanced training.

If someone increased their skill so that they went from being unskilled to skilled( had completed a 5 year apprenticeship minmum) then they invaribaly had to change union; for example going from the NUR to ASLEF or TGWU to EETPU( electricians). The power and income of a union is proportional to it’s membership. In addition, productivity was low in the UK partly due to over-manning , especially by un and semi-skilled personnel. The ever increasing advances in technology over the last 300 years has meant employing fewer but more skilled personnel in industry. The more people employed in a factory who were by a un or semi skilled and members of a an unskilled union , the more power the union wielded , especially within the Labour Party ( due to the block vote). Therefore , there was no benefit to a un or semi-skilled union for members to increase their skill to the level of craftsman or for the company to invest in more advanced technology requiring fewer unskilled personnel but more craftsmen, as they would lose numbers and income.

The massive job losses in the late 70s and 80s in the UK were in part because of the over-manning in much of industry.In the UK employment of un skilled and semi-skilled personnel was 25-50% higher han in Germany, in the 70s and 80s. Therefore, when computere aided manufacturing was brought in throughout the World , the UK job losses were much higher.

The unskilled unions also worked hard to reduce the pay differentials between the unskilled and skilled , especially those who were charge hands or foremen. A former electrician foremen told me he was only paid 15% more than someone who was semi-skilled in the 70s. A foremen whould probably be in charge of 3 charge hands who in turn would be responsible for 3 craftsmen and 3 apprentices. Consequently many craftsmen emigrated and those who stayed in the UK, voted for Mrs Thatcher. It was the large number of strikes and the undermining of the foremen’s authority by shop stewards , particularly those in the un/semi-skilled unions which persuaded many craftsmen to vote for the Conservatives in 1979.

There is not a single member of the Labour cabinet who is a craftsmen, held the position of foremen and who has worked in manufacturing/industry; and probably few Labour MPs. Therefore there is no Labour cabinet member who has the practical experience to understand the type of craft training this country needs in order to move from it’s over reliance on financial companies in S England and Edinburgh to greater levels of manufacturing in the rest of the country. The inability to move the unskilled to semi skilled and semi skilled to skilled and the skilled to technician level by providing adequate educaton and training is a major contribution to the decline in manufacturing amd the problems facing the white working class.

Have you been following me around and making detailed notes on my life? Because there is no way you could make assertions about my income and work like that without some intense stalking.

This is twice now you’ve made the baseless assertion that I don’t work and its a pointless distraction. If you are so desperate to know, yes I do work and I do pay taxation. Do my points magically become valid now?

Now, if you’re finished throwing abuse at me and everyone else who dares voice an opinion contrary to your own, maybe you’d like to put an argument forward for a change?

Lee , you are talking bollocks . The left wing and Liberal middle -classes are exactly the group within the Labour Party who impose what they call a progressive agenda on working class voters who are indifferent at best about it .

Actually, Lee is right. Your and Charlie’s arguments rely on the idea that the Labour Party is actually influenced by their membership. On the contrary, since Tony Blair came to power, internal Labour democracy has been gradually eroded by removing the traditional voting framework.

The Labour Government is the group within the Labour Party (as you’d like to put it) which are responsible for the Labour Party’s failure to address the issues that are affecting the white working classes. Even now, the main issue of housing is actively avoided by the Labour Government, despite Gordon Brown’s commitment to 3 million more homes by 2020. This country hasn’t had a proper, sustainable housing plan for over 20 years at least. The current problem is a failure of policy in housing and the economy, not of multiculturalism and immigration.

I certainly did not think of myself as ‘white working-class’, nor did my parents, until mass immigration, the rapid changes to my environment and the assertion that newly arrived migrants should have their identity, culture and practises encouraged, celebrated and protected.

Imagine how you feel when your family have lived in an area for two centuries, your ancestors have toiled in factories and helped build the infrastructure around you without any recognition, yet middle-class, white, so-called “liberal” politicians on a multi-cultural holiday from some provincial backwater want you to celebrate black history, and pay for it. As ‘Black History Month’ covers asian and oriental subjects, it reads non-white history. As mainstream local history surrounds the achievements of the middle and upper classes, its easy to conclude us white working-class are being excluded.

Promoting the identities of others fuels segregation. Its the same as nationalistic forces in the UK. Aggressive nationalism, supported by the left, in Scotland, Wales and Ireland has created a more rigid English identity at the expense of a previous British identity. Its now not uncommon to be abused for displaying a union jack at an England football match.

I now identify myself as white working-class more to separate myself from the white middle-class and more importantly from the white middle-class Left, with whom I have little in common and who I despise with a passion.

For years, money has been thrown at initiatives for under-achieving ethnic minority children at the expenses of under-achieving lower class white kids because the white average was pulled-up by all the middle-class kids. Now, its dawned on the policy makers that huge numbers of white kids are failing in education. That’s why they now seek to separate by class. It is they who segregated by colour in teh first place.

“The white working class is a cause created by the right. No white person identifies himself or herself as “a white person”, unless they’re racists. And why separate the white working class from the non-white? All working class people have similar problems around housing, rights at work, fear of unemployment etc.”

“Fascists want to appeal to a “white working class” because that’s where they hope to get votes from, and because they want to encourage popular attacks on immigration. It’s just a way to divide working people.”

“The Progressive London conference on Saturday 24th, Congress House, will have a session on “7 million Londoners, 1 London – Multicultural City”, which will discuss anti-racist issues.”
“7 million Londoners, 1 London – Multicultural City
Roundtable on diverse London with: Darbinderjit Singh, Sikh Federation; Inayat Bunglawala, Adviser on research and policy, ENGAGE; Edie Friedman, Founder and Chief Executive of Jewish Council on Racial Equality; Ibrahim Dogus, Halkevi Chief Executive; Daf Adley, NUS LGBT Officer; Jon Myles, Editor, Irish Post; Lester Holloway, Editor New Nation; Sabby Dhalu, Secretary, Unite Against Fascism; Chair: Wilf Sullivan, TUC race equality policy officer”

Aaah yes, what a rounded debate that will be! Considering the people who vote BNP are generally white-working class, why do you continually refuse to engage with such people? You know, those chavs you despise so much. Its like having debate on black crime without inviting any black people or one on muslim fundies, without inviting any muslims. Your twisted ideology is frighteningly stupid.

White working-class people are getting pissed-off, so 1) deny they exist and 2) brand them as racist! Oh, that’s solved it. You f***ing mugs!

Shatterface, I took your post in #15 as sarcastic. After #19 I’m not so sure.

Dougie , It is in fact difficult to draw a line between paranoid racism and ordinary nationalist sentiment in theory . In practice however the difference is very clear. Enoch Powell was not a racist in theory , he had no eugenic beliefs. In practice however as you will see from his speech, if you read it , he demonised black men in a manner that made his immediate expulsion form the Conservative Party essential .
It is of course precisely this confusion that those who hate the country use to further their cause which is to unpick its distinctive weave and leave nothing in its place

What a gentlemanly comment, the very model of traditional conservative good manners and self restraint .

That essay is all over the place, I think.

Either: you deny Powells’ paranoia here:

You cannot deny the problems of the 50s and 60s though .The Dockers marching in support of Enoch Powell *( a man I have detested since reading his atrocious Rivers of Blood Speech Years ago )

Which you largely seem to do.

Or you agree with yourself:

Is England to be allowed to stay essentially English or will it be turned into an undifferentiated patch of land about which no-one cares . We are already close to this state with the term British , in particular having ceased to have any meaning beyond a legal one.

Which is somewhat near the exact opposite.

Just asking.

I’m Scottish, and I don’t care where you come from. Say you are Scottish, you are. That’s what I believe in. Naive or stupid, it seems to work. Integration seems to work better if you don’t see cultural superiority as some sort of asset. I don’t. And I don’t see why you would either.

Despite your diatribe above.

Surely these are traits we should encourage throughout society?

Oh definitely not! Worse, if anything. I’ll eat all my hats if they don’t bring in ID cards regardless. I just wish Labour would stop rolling out the blue carpet for them. Makes it too easy.

And Lee’s right about Redruth too. It’s just so insidious. I remember seeing on a bus in a poshish part of North London, a well-dressed, neatly coiffed, middle-aged woman literally shoving two small schoolgirls of, at a guess, twelve into a post as she passed them. So far as I could gather, this was because they were giggling loudly amongst themselves. She didn’t say “Excuse me,” or gently put a hand through the gap to indicate her wish to pass. She just assumed they were The Enemy and could be badly treated, because they were young. It’s horrible.

This Is Now A Rant. I will stop.

I would certainly accept that in the past there was a level of racism in this country. There is also an exceedingly tolerant tradition for which the indigenous people get no thanks . Not all bad things are racist though. I have been beaten up abused and treated with disrespect over the course of my life , I daresay its not unusual . That’s due to stuff happens-ism ? Sunny probably carries a colour key card to judge the political criminality of his assailants , I just try and run away.

You cannot deny the problems of the 50s and 60s though .The Dockers marching in support of Enoch Powell *( a man I have detested since reading his atrocious Rivers of Blood Speech Years ago ) . The “black burying “ raids of London and the astonishment England felt at the influx of West Indians initially . There is no longer significant racism in this country in the sense that it has fallen back into the landscape of prejudice and judgment that is normal human life . Now we are talking about competing ethnicities and competing visions of the country . Sunny wants the English to give up their country .I want new -comers to integrate and feel a control of numbers is an essential first step. This has nothing to do with race . It is nonetheless becoming a problem
The torrents are turning a bourgeois tiff concerning a tiny minority settling in into a war between competing ethnic groups and competing visions for the future . Is England to be allowed to stay essentially English or will it be turned into an undifferentiated patch of land about which no-one cares . We are already close to this state with the term British , in particular having ceased to have any meaning beyond a legal one.

PS I love the way that cretin OHOC talks about investment. Hey idiot have you ever made any of the money to be invested ….Yes I ` am talking to you OHOC you parasitical pointless noise……

Frankly, anyone using ‘mosquitos’ to disperse teenagers deserves to have their windows put in.

I hope the banning of these obcene devices will be a priority for Liberty Central.

I don’t think any of the main parties are dragging themselves away from this kind of classism, and certainly all indulge in the politics of fear around youth crime.

Erm, do you believe the Tories are going to be nicer?

OHOC – well said, agree with that you wrote.

Indeed, and it’s Labourite thinking. Any change of tune from them is way, way overdue. It’s Labour that has taught us to believe that hooded sweatshirts – FFS – are a potentially offensive weapon, and that kids who don’t have the money to do anything else and who gather in groups of more than three on street corners are dangerous and must be broken up, curfewed and arrested. It’s not six months since the revolting Jacqui Smith declared she would encourage the police to harrass young people with a *previous* history of offending as they went about their daily business.

Labour have aided and abetted public prejudice against the (non)-working classes (of all backgrounds) and given the police the powers to exploit those prejudices and then let them all get on with it. Good luck stopping the juggernaut now.

Fascists want to appeal to a “white working class” because that’s where they hope to get votes from, and because they want to encourage popular attacks on immigration. It’s just a way to divide working people.

The Progressive London conference on Saturday 24th, Congress House, will have a session on “7 million Londoners, 1 London – Multicultural City”, which will discuss anti-racist issues.

What can we say about the white working class which isn’t true of other groups?

The white working class suffers from declining housing stock, low investment in vital public services and a poverty trap.

The working class as a whole suffers from declining housing stock, low investment in public services and a poverty trap.

The only difference is that when Blears talks about the white working class is that she means that section of the white working class which blames foreigners and immigrants for their problems, as opposed to the successive governments which have abandoned them. Racism is born out of poverty; if we look at the United States, the states which have the highest incidences of racism (West Virginia, Alabama, Louisiana) are also those which are most depressed. The South’s agrarian economy is no longer relevant significant to the United States’ as a whole, which has been the case since before the Emancipation Proclamation and in West Virginia, the key economic contributor is the coal industry, which underpays its workers, locks them in the worst conditions and knows that they can’t go get a better job, because there are no other jobs any more. The same is true here; Burnley, Oldham and Barking (with 10/12 councillors coming from Barking) are all areas which have seen the collapse in manufacturing industry hit them hardest. There has been no corresponding reinvestment in the area and this the consequence of that.

So rather than deliver knee-jerk reactions, as Ms.Blears specialises in, perhaps we should be dealing with the root cause of the problem?

I’m always suspicious when Ms.Blears makes these comments anyway, because it strikes me as one of those shallow gestures that Blairites the right-wing of the Labour Party makes towards the left, such as James Purnell’s interview with the Fabian Society where he claimed he was a spiritual successor to Keir Hardie. Right, that’s in between your paranoid and counter-productive persecution of those on benefits? If you can’t tell, I really want Peter Hain back.

Still, this is old news: most foreigners have gone home as our economy has collapsed.

I suppose I should tell my mother that all those incidents of racial abuse she suffered, or when my uncles had their turbans pulled off their heads… those were fantasies developed by left-wing revisionist propagandists.

chavscum is on fire! If only all the world’s problems were solved so easily!

I’d quite like an extra day holiday, but let’s get away from the fantasy that George is England’s patron saint – it was Gregory, but he just wasn’t warrior-like enough to fit with the crusader propaganda.

Another rant of right wing fantasy. Lets all return to the early part of the twentieth century when every thing was wonderful.

Or………. to translate Right wing bullshit into English.

Lets return to when the working man knew his place, and worked for a pittance for his corporate masters. When he was terrified that he would not be able to feed his family, pay the rent or get medicine if his family got sick. And then ,after he had worked all his life for nothing, he died off in his sixties, and therefore needed no pension. And all the time he tipped his forelock to his masters who were kind enough to treat him like shit all his life. Ah yes, the good old days.

Or………. to translate Right wing bullshit into English.

Lets return to when the working man knew his place, and worked for a pittance for his corporate masters. When he was terrified that he would not be able to feed his family, pay the rent or get medicine if his family got sick. And then ,after he had worked all his life for nothing, he died off in his sixties, and therefore needed no pension. And all the time he tipped his forelock to his masters who were kind enough to treat him like shit all his life. Ah yes, the good old days.

And you even managed to get Ross into your pathetic rant,. Can’t have a working class boy making lots of money can we now.

Do you have to clock in every day to get your talking points from right wing central?