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	<title>Comments on: We are the Angry Mob</title>
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	<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/</link>
	<description>creating a new liberal-left force</description>
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		<title>By: George V</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26734</link>
		<dc:creator>George V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26734</guid>
		<description>Some years ago, I thought about taking the civil service exams. WIth the application pack was a psychometric test. You answered a series of questions by saying how important a number of things were to you on a scale of one to five and they gave you a score which put you in one of four personality types which were then rated from &quot;you&#039;re just the sort of chap we want&quot; to &quot;well, you&#039;re always welcome to apply...&quot;

Having done the test and fallen squarely into the latter category, I reverse engineered the test to find out the sort of person that they were actually looking for:

The answer was someone as unlike me as it was possible to imagine for all sorts of reasons but  I remember one question in particular:

How important is creativity to you in your work? 

The answer they wanted was two out of five.

Who actually values creativity this much? I can imagine not valuing it at all - I personally value it a lot  - but 2 out of 5? Just enough to realise that it is sometimes important but not so much that you actually want it to be part of your day. 

Not that I am saying that civil servants are actually like that at all. What I am saying is that that seems to be what civil service managers&#039; ideal candidate would be like. It made me think</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some years ago, I thought about taking the civil service exams. WIth the application pack was a psychometric test. You answered a series of questions by saying how important a number of things were to you on a scale of one to five and they gave you a score which put you in one of four personality types which were then rated from &#8220;you&#8217;re just the sort of chap we want&#8221; to &#8220;well, you&#8217;re always welcome to apply&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Having done the test and fallen squarely into the latter category, I reverse engineered the test to find out the sort of person that they were actually looking for:</p>
<p>The answer was someone as unlike me as it was possible to imagine for all sorts of reasons but  I remember one question in particular:</p>
<p>How important is creativity to you in your work? </p>
<p>The answer they wanted was two out of five.</p>
<p>Who actually values creativity this much? I can imagine not valuing it at all &#8211; I personally value it a lot  &#8211; but 2 out of 5? Just enough to realise that it is sometimes important but not so much that you actually want it to be part of your day. </p>
<p>Not that I am saying that civil servants are actually like that at all. What I am saying is that that seems to be what civil service managers&#8217; ideal candidate would be like. It made me think</p>
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		<title>By: Charlieman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26432</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26432</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the careers advice, Head of Legal. Whilst not having a criminal record, I have twice failed negative vetting, so I am somewhat surprised that Chris Galley actually got a job given his overt interest in party politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the careers advice, Head of Legal. Whilst not having a criminal record, I have twice failed negative vetting, so I am somewhat surprised that Chris Galley actually got a job given his overt interest in party politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Head of Legal</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26418</link>
		<dc:creator>Head of Legal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26418</guid>
		<description>I guess you&#039;ve never been a civil servant, Charlieman! It&#039;s not that I&#039;d be concerned about what my line manager would do; I&#039;d be concerned about what my head of department or permanent secretary would do, which would most likely be to take all the evidence, tell me not to worry about it and mark my card as not suitable for progression. The size of the organisation doesn&#039;t help you at all, and in fact Whitehall departments aren&#039;t all that big: top managers know you, chat about you and can easily control your career. 

To be any kind of leaker, apologist for leaks of soft-pedaller on leaks of any kind is to be seen as a counter-cultural rebel, making trouble and threatening the machine. It&#039;s amazing how much disapproval you can attract simply by, say, talking about this Greengate affair in anything but the most condemnatory terms about Chris Galley. Not a good idea in front of bosses. Independent thought? Moral values? As I say, I don&#039;t think you&#039;ve ever been a civil servant!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess you&#8217;ve never been a civil servant, Charlieman! It&#8217;s not that I&#8217;d be concerned about what my line manager would do; I&#8217;d be concerned about what my head of department or permanent secretary would do, which would most likely be to take all the evidence, tell me not to worry about it and mark my card as not suitable for progression. The size of the organisation doesn&#8217;t help you at all, and in fact Whitehall departments aren&#8217;t all that big: top managers know you, chat about you and can easily control your career. </p>
<p>To be any kind of leaker, apologist for leaks of soft-pedaller on leaks of any kind is to be seen as a counter-cultural rebel, making trouble and threatening the machine. It&#8217;s amazing how much disapproval you can attract simply by, say, talking about this Greengate affair in anything but the most condemnatory terms about Chris Galley. Not a good idea in front of bosses. Independent thought? Moral values? As I say, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ve ever been a civil servant!</p>
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		<title>By: Charlieman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26387</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26387</guid>
		<description>I acknowledge Head of Legal&#039;s concerns about being marked as a trouble maker if you whistle blow. However, you do not whistle blow to your line manager; you step outside the heirarchy and raise your concern with somebody who is not a line manager. All large organisations provide a whistle blowing procedure. If you work for a small organisation (eg a contractor) then you may need to step outside formal procedures.

But what is wrong about being labeled as a whistle blower? It identifies you as capable of independent thought with moral values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I acknowledge Head of Legal&#8217;s concerns about being marked as a trouble maker if you whistle blow. However, you do not whistle blow to your line manager; you step outside the heirarchy and raise your concern with somebody who is not a line manager. All large organisations provide a whistle blowing procedure. If you work for a small organisation (eg a contractor) then you may need to step outside formal procedures.</p>
<p>But what is wrong about being labeled as a whistle blower? It identifies you as capable of independent thought with moral values.</p>
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		<title>By: ukliberty</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26349</link>
		<dc:creator>ukliberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 11:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26349</guid>
		<description>HeadofLegal, fair points all.  And I bow to your greater experience!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HeadofLegal, fair points all.  And I bow to your greater experience!</p>
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		<title>By: Head of Legal</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26338</link>
		<dc:creator>Head of Legal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 11:09:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26338</guid>
		<description>Of course it&#039;s a breach of contract - no one denies that. The issue is whether it should be criminal. 

As for exhausting internal processes, that&#039;s easy to say, but you do need to factor into that two things. First, raising a concern like that will ruin your civil service career almost as effectively as being caught leaking will - you&#039;ll be marked as a troublemaker. To be honest, I think from a selfish point of view it&#039;s more rational to take the risk of leaking. Second, doing that makes it possible for the system to stop the leak - they can take original documents, remove e-mails, etc., etc., so the person who genuinely thinks the public has to be told about some scandal may, by raising it internally, give up all power to do so. In the end, &quot;internal processes&quot; can just be a way of allowing the machine to kill the leak and identifying a leaker at the same time. It may sound cynical and paranoid, but years in the civil service make you quite cynical and paranoid about it. 

When I was a civil servant I made up my mind I would only leak in extreme circumstances (difficult to say what they are in advance, but an example might have been evidence of ministers colluding in a murder or some bad criminality, or lying to Parliament about some important matter) but if those circumstances came about, I would simply leak, not go through the internal processes designed to stop me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it&#8217;s a breach of contract &#8211; no one denies that. The issue is whether it should be criminal. </p>
<p>As for exhausting internal processes, that&#8217;s easy to say, but you do need to factor into that two things. First, raising a concern like that will ruin your civil service career almost as effectively as being caught leaking will &#8211; you&#8217;ll be marked as a troublemaker. To be honest, I think from a selfish point of view it&#8217;s more rational to take the risk of leaking. Second, doing that makes it possible for the system to stop the leak &#8211; they can take original documents, remove e-mails, etc., etc., so the person who genuinely thinks the public has to be told about some scandal may, by raising it internally, give up all power to do so. In the end, &#8220;internal processes&#8221; can just be a way of allowing the machine to kill the leak and identifying a leaker at the same time. It may sound cynical and paranoid, but years in the civil service make you quite cynical and paranoid about it. </p>
<p>When I was a civil servant I made up my mind I would only leak in extreme circumstances (difficult to say what they are in advance, but an example might have been evidence of ministers colluding in a murder or some bad criminality, or lying to Parliament about some important matter) but if those circumstances came about, I would simply leak, not go through the internal processes designed to stop me.</p>
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		<title>By: ukliberty</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26333</link>
		<dc:creator>ukliberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 10:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26333</guid>
		<description>I agree with Charlieman here.  Surely it is reasonable to expect a civil servant who has genuine concerns to exhaust the (reasonable) internal processes before considering whether or not to leak?  That is to say, leaking should be a last resort.

Does leaking amount to a criminal matter?  Not in the general sense.  It is however clearly a breach of the conditions of employment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Charlieman here.  Surely it is reasonable to expect a civil servant who has genuine concerns to exhaust the (reasonable) internal processes before considering whether or not to leak?  That is to say, leaking should be a last resort.</p>
<p>Does leaking amount to a criminal matter?  Not in the general sense.  It is however clearly a breach of the conditions of employment.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlieman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26313</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 00:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26313</guid>
		<description>For the record, genuine whistle blowers are protected by the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998. Advice is included in the Civil Service Code and in trades union resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, genuine whistle blowers are protected by the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998. Advice is included in the Civil Service Code and in trades union resources.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlieman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26310</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 00:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26310</guid>
		<description>@Lee 111 

There is an easy set of steps if you think that (as a Civil Servant or plain Joe Smith) information should be disclosed.

1. Raise a complaint within government. Painful, but possible.

2. If 1 fails, leak. Then trust that you have a valid reason for leaking.

Step 2 is conditional upon step 1. If you haven&#039;t worked through the system, expect little sympathy in the courts. 

Clive Ponting was rightly cleared for a clear SOA breach according to earlier laws. Post-Ponting, leakers should go through step 1 and there are very few occasions when a unilateral leak is necessary. If a leak is necessary, it can be defended in spite of the cretinous denial of &quot;public interest&quot; in the OSA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Lee 111 </p>
<p>There is an easy set of steps if you think that (as a Civil Servant or plain Joe Smith) information should be disclosed.</p>
<p>1. Raise a complaint within government. Painful, but possible.</p>
<p>2. If 1 fails, leak. Then trust that you have a valid reason for leaking.</p>
<p>Step 2 is conditional upon step 1. If you haven&#8217;t worked through the system, expect little sympathy in the courts. </p>
<p>Clive Ponting was rightly cleared for a clear SOA breach according to earlier laws. Post-Ponting, leakers should go through step 1 and there are very few occasions when a unilateral leak is necessary. If a leak is necessary, it can be defended in spite of the cretinous denial of &#8220;public interest&#8221; in the OSA.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Griffin</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26297</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26297</guid>
		<description>&quot;If a CS observes that parliament is being fed misleading information, s/he can raise that concern internally.&quot;

And keeping &quot;misleading&quot; information in the dark from the people being mislead is the *best* practice we have available?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If a CS observes that parliament is being fed misleading information, s/he can raise that concern internally.&#8221;</p>
<p>And keeping &#8220;misleading&#8221; information in the dark from the people being mislead is the *best* practice we have available?</p>
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		<title>By: Charlieman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26294</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26294</guid>
		<description>Statistics can&#039;t apply to leaks from career civil servants, because the events are so infrequent. However, we do have the case of Clive Ponting: high level CS, leaker, prosecuted, not guilty. Subsequently the government has emended the OSA so that &quot;public interest&quot; is no longer a defence; owing to the Human Rights Act, we can safely file that amendment with a law stating &quot;no clouds on Thursdays&quot;.

Civil Servants, today, have much more protection within the service. If a CS observes that parliament is being fed misleading information, s/he can raise that concern internally. Only in extreme circumstances should the CS leak information. Common sense suggests that if a CS is in such a situation, the information should not be leaked to a party buddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Statistics can&#8217;t apply to leaks from career civil servants, because the events are so infrequent. However, we do have the case of Clive Ponting: high level CS, leaker, prosecuted, not guilty. Subsequently the government has emended the OSA so that &#8220;public interest&#8221; is no longer a defence; owing to the Human Rights Act, we can safely file that amendment with a law stating &#8220;no clouds on Thursdays&#8221;.</p>
<p>Civil Servants, today, have much more protection within the service. If a CS observes that parliament is being fed misleading information, s/he can raise that concern internally. Only in extreme circumstances should the CS leak information. Common sense suggests that if a CS is in such a situation, the information should not be leaked to a party buddy.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Griffin</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26278</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26278</guid>
		<description>&quot;Of course all Govts suffer leeks, but usually they are career civil servicemen, who after years in the job feel, as a matter of conscience, the need to leek something important.&quot;

Do you have sources and actual facts to back up this statement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Of course all Govts suffer leeks, but usually they are career civil servicemen, who after years in the job feel, as a matter of conscience, the need to leek something important.&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you have sources and actual facts to back up this statement?</p>
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		<title>By: ukliberty</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26272</link>
		<dc:creator>ukliberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26272</guid>
		<description>Sally, I seem to recall more reasonable suspicion at the time of &#039;cash for honours&#039; that there were criminal offences being committed than there is evidence of any criminal offence being committed in this case.  

Of course we don&#039;t know the nature of &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; these leaks - Jacqui Smith implies that they must be very serious indeed, involving national security, but this begs other questions.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Tory party have claimed that the information leaked was not under the official secrets act, and was small fry. Well, in that case the leaker is going to have a difficult time using the moral defence to justify his actions. This moves him from being a leaker of principle, and into the realms of a Tory mole. But was he a paid Tory mole?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Eh? You seem to be conflating several things here.  The essential principles are these: 
1. did his conduct amount to a criminal offence;
2.  was the way in which the investigation has been conducted necessary and proportionate;
3. was there a more reasonable alternative means of resolving this situation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sally, I seem to recall more reasonable suspicion at the time of &#8216;cash for honours&#8217; that there were criminal offences being committed than there is evidence of any criminal offence being committed in this case.  </p>
<p>Of course we don&#8217;t know the nature of <i>all</i> these leaks &#8211; Jacqui Smith implies that they must be very serious indeed, involving national security, but this begs other questions.</p>
<blockquote><p>The Tory party have claimed that the information leaked was not under the official secrets act, and was small fry. Well, in that case the leaker is going to have a difficult time using the moral defence to justify his actions. This moves him from being a leaker of principle, and into the realms of a Tory mole. But was he a paid Tory mole?</p></blockquote>
<p>Eh? You seem to be conflating several things here.  The essential principles are these:<br />
1. did his conduct amount to a criminal offence;<br />
2.  was the way in which the investigation has been conducted necessary and proportionate;<br />
3. was there a more reasonable alternative means of resolving this situation?</p>
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		<title>By: sally</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26268</link>
		<dc:creator>sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26268</guid>
		<description>But the Tory party was quite happy to egg on the police when investigating Tony Blair a  few years ago.  They saw no problem with police officers marching  into 10 Downing street and taking out computers.  There was dark talk of a secret room where Blair hid all his ‘special ‘computers.    &quot;nobody should be above the law&quot; they screamed.  Now the boot is on the other foot  they scream &quot;POLICE STATE.&quot;

Of course all Govts suffer leeks, but usually they are career civil servicemen, who after years in the job feel,  as   a matter of conscience, the need   to leek something important.  This is not the case in this story. We have a very young man who has been in post for 5 minutes, and has already leaked a number of documents to an opposition front bencher, who just happens to be in the same party as he is.  

The Tory party have claimed that the information leaked was not under the official secrets act, and was small fry.  Well, in that case the leaker is going to have a difficult time using the moral defence to justify his actions.  This moves him from being a leaker of principle, and into the realms of a Tory mole.  But was he a paid Tory mole?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the Tory party was quite happy to egg on the police when investigating Tony Blair a  few years ago.  They saw no problem with police officers marching  into 10 Downing street and taking out computers.  There was dark talk of a secret room where Blair hid all his ‘special ‘computers.    &#8220;nobody should be above the law&#8221; they screamed.  Now the boot is on the other foot  they scream &#8220;POLICE STATE.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course all Govts suffer leeks, but usually they are career civil servicemen, who after years in the job feel,  as   a matter of conscience, the need   to leek something important.  This is not the case in this story. We have a very young man who has been in post for 5 minutes, and has already leaked a number of documents to an opposition front bencher, who just happens to be in the same party as he is.  </p>
<p>The Tory party have claimed that the information leaked was not under the official secrets act, and was small fry.  Well, in that case the leaker is going to have a difficult time using the moral defence to justify his actions.  This moves him from being a leaker of principle, and into the realms of a Tory mole.  But was he a paid Tory mole?</p>
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		<title>By: ukliberty</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26264</link>
		<dc:creator>ukliberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 15:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26264</guid>
		<description>Video of Speaker&#039;s statement &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7763138.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Video of Speaker&#8217;s statement <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7763138.stm" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: cjcjc</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26263</link>
		<dc:creator>cjcjc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 15:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26263</guid>
		<description>Sounds as though the serjeant should go...amazing really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds as though the serjeant should go&#8230;amazing really.</p>
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		<title>By: ukliberty</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26261</link>
		<dc:creator>ukliberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 15:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26261</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/dec/03/michaelmartin-damian-green&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Guardian:&lt;/a&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;The Speaker said police contacted the serjeant at arms, Jill Pay, to request access to search Green&#039;s office.

&quot;I have been told that police did not explain, as they are required to do, that the serjeant was not obliged to consent or that a warrant could have been insisted upon.&quot;

Martin said he &quot;regretted&quot; that the serjeant then signed a consent form without consulting the clerk of the house.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/dec/03/michaelmartin-damian-green" rel="nofollow">The Guardian:</a><br />
<blockquote>The Speaker said police contacted the serjeant at arms, Jill Pay, to request access to search Green&#8217;s office.</p>
<p>&#8220;I have been told that police did not explain, as they are required to do, that the serjeant was not obliged to consent or that a warrant could have been insisted upon.&#8221;</p>
<p>Martin said he &#8220;regretted&#8221; that the serjeant then signed a consent form without consulting the clerk of the house.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: George V</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26258</link>
		<dc:creator>George V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 15:22:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26258</guid>
		<description>I just heard the speaker claim that it never occurred, either to him or to the serjeant at arms, to ask the police if they had a warrant. 

They didn&#039;t

If he had, wouldn&#039;t the police have had to go to a judge to get one and isn&#039;t there a good chance, in light of the above, that the judge would have told them to bugger off.

Stuff parliamentary privilege, I&#039;d like to think that if the police showed up at my office asking to search my desk, my boss would ask to see a warrant. I certainly would if they arrived on my doorstep.

Still, perhaps it has turned out for the best - if this hadn&#039;t happened, any one of the shower of senior police numbskulls involved in this witless decision might have become commissioner of the Met; it seems they&#039;ve all applied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just heard the speaker claim that it never occurred, either to him or to the serjeant at arms, to ask the police if they had a warrant. </p>
<p>They didn&#8217;t</p>
<p>If he had, wouldn&#8217;t the police have had to go to a judge to get one and isn&#8217;t there a good chance, in light of the above, that the judge would have told them to bugger off.</p>
<p>Stuff parliamentary privilege, I&#8217;d like to think that if the police showed up at my office asking to search my desk, my boss would ask to see a warrant. I certainly would if they arrived on my doorstep.</p>
<p>Still, perhaps it has turned out for the best &#8211; if this hadn&#8217;t happened, any one of the shower of senior police numbskulls involved in this witless decision might have become commissioner of the Met; it seems they&#8217;ve all applied.</p>
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		<title>By: George V</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26242</link>
		<dc:creator>George V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26242</guid>
		<description>I meant &quot;..almost certainly result in a change to the law on misconduct)&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant &#8220;..almost certainly result in a change to the law on misconduct)&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: George V</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26240</link>
		<dc:creator>George V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26240</guid>
		<description>I agree with UKL, nobody wants MPs to be above the law. The difference that lies between the positions of various commenters is, should Green have been arrested, whatever his position.

Some of us seem to think that nobody should have been arrested for doing what Green is alleged to have done; others think that, given the regrettable state of the law, any citizen who asked a civil servant to leak anything at all could reasonably have been arrested by counter terrorist police and have their home and property searched. This seems to be Unity&#039;s position (forgive me if I have misunderstood).

My own position is that it is extremely unlikely that a prosecution for conspiracy to misconduct would result in a prosecution because a court would be very unlikely to interpret the law in this way. From my understanding of the offence currently under investigation, the police have therefore erred in law. Moreover, such a prosecution would obviously be contrary to the public interest (except insofar as it would almost certainly result in the law on misconduct) and, since I understand that the CPS has to take the public interest into account when deciding whether to prosecute, it is unlikely that it would even get to court.

This therefore represents a serious error of judgement on the part of the police and, in my view, on the part of the speaker and sergeant at arms, who should certainly have asked rather tougher questions about the police&#039;s request to search Green&#039;s office because, although MPs are not above the law, the institution of parliament is entitled to a certain degree of additional protection from investigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with UKL, nobody wants MPs to be above the law. The difference that lies between the positions of various commenters is, should Green have been arrested, whatever his position.</p>
<p>Some of us seem to think that nobody should have been arrested for doing what Green is alleged to have done; others think that, given the regrettable state of the law, any citizen who asked a civil servant to leak anything at all could reasonably have been arrested by counter terrorist police and have their home and property searched. This seems to be Unity&#8217;s position (forgive me if I have misunderstood).</p>
<p>My own position is that it is extremely unlikely that a prosecution for conspiracy to misconduct would result in a prosecution because a court would be very unlikely to interpret the law in this way. From my understanding of the offence currently under investigation, the police have therefore erred in law. Moreover, such a prosecution would obviously be contrary to the public interest (except insofar as it would almost certainly result in the law on misconduct) and, since I understand that the CPS has to take the public interest into account when deciding whether to prosecute, it is unlikely that it would even get to court.</p>
<p>This therefore represents a serious error of judgement on the part of the police and, in my view, on the part of the speaker and sergeant at arms, who should certainly have asked rather tougher questions about the police&#8217;s request to search Green&#8217;s office because, although MPs are not above the law, the institution of parliament is entitled to a certain degree of additional protection from investigation.</p>
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		<title>By: ukliberty</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26230</link>
		<dc:creator>ukliberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 11:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26230</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Principle #1 - No one, not even a Member of Parliament is above or outside the law.

That should be a simple enough concept for most but as some seem not quite to have understood thing properly it clearly needs to spelled out that the Palace of Westminster is NOT the ‘land of do as you please’ and ‘parliamentary privilege‘ does not - and never has - conferred any kind of blanket immunity to arrest or prosecution, on MPs nor does it preclude the police entering the House of Parliament in order to pursue their inquiries.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Looking around, I&#039;m not sure anyone has said that MPs should be above the law.  What some have said is that when the police took the action they did, they should have only done so on the basis that it was necessary and proportionate, and the thinking about proportionality should have included the unique role MPs play in our society.  (Of course we do not know whether or not they did think about that.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Principle #1 &#8211; No one, not even a Member of Parliament is above or outside the law.</p>
<p>That should be a simple enough concept for most but as some seem not quite to have understood thing properly it clearly needs to spelled out that the Palace of Westminster is NOT the ‘land of do as you please’ and ‘parliamentary privilege‘ does not &#8211; and never has &#8211; conferred any kind of blanket immunity to arrest or prosecution, on MPs nor does it preclude the police entering the House of Parliament in order to pursue their inquiries.</p></blockquote>
<p>Looking around, I&#8217;m not sure anyone has said that MPs should be above the law.  What some have said is that when the police took the action they did, they should have only done so on the basis that it was necessary and proportionate, and the thinking about proportionality should have included the unique role MPs play in our society.  (Of course we do not know whether or not they did think about that.)</p>
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		<title>By: Queen&#8217;s Speech: State Opening of Parliament &#171; Insitelaw magazine</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26207</link>
		<dc:creator>Queen&#8217;s Speech: State Opening of Parliament &#171; Insitelaw magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 07:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26207</guid>
		<description>[...] spill over into outright support for the worst sort of traditionalist Yes, Minister Whitehallism. I&#8217;m quite pleased with my own comment, and vain enough to think you might even want to read [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] spill over into outright support for the worst sort of traditionalist Yes, Minister Whitehallism. I&#8217;m quite pleased with my own comment, and vain enough to think you might even want to read [...]</p>
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		<title>By: thomas</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26190</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26190</guid>
		<description>I, for one, would hope that the law would be applied consistently whatever the chargable offence. 

Misconduct in public office may be upheld in this case, but I think most people would contend a widely cast net would catch many offenders, some of whom are likely to be of a higher order of criminal.

I also think the manner by which the events have proceeded should raise the subject of standards in public life to a new height as it is something which sullies the reputation of everyone involved. 

So whoever is immediately blamed this is something which won&#039;t easily be forgotten, just like the tanks at Heathrow (to add to the list of police state atrocities), and accumulated impressions of this sort will undoubtedly play a large role in deciding the outcome of the next election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, for one, would hope that the law would be applied consistently whatever the chargable offence. </p>
<p>Misconduct in public office may be upheld in this case, but I think most people would contend a widely cast net would catch many offenders, some of whom are likely to be of a higher order of criminal.</p>
<p>I also think the manner by which the events have proceeded should raise the subject of standards in public life to a new height as it is something which sullies the reputation of everyone involved. </p>
<p>So whoever is immediately blamed this is something which won&#8217;t easily be forgotten, just like the tanks at Heathrow (to add to the list of police state atrocities), and accumulated impressions of this sort will undoubtedly play a large role in deciding the outcome of the next election.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlieman</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26185</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26185</guid>
		<description>In the original post, Unity uses the word &quot;immunity&quot; to remind us that the same laws apply to MPs as the rest of us. MPs can speak more freely in the chamber than we can on Speakers&#039; Corner, and their correspondence with constituents is protected. There are probably other mitigations. But overall, MPs are subject to the same laws as you and me.

That fact is something for which we should be grateful. Do you really want a House of Commons full of the same excrement that you find in Italy, where elected politicians hide behind their immunity until the statute of limitations frees them? 

When UK politicians reveal &quot;secret&quot; information, they should be judged in the same way as you or me. Does the disclosure serve the public interest? If information is received that solely serves a party interest, MPs should report it to the police or shut down their brains (not difficult, I agree).

It is actually better for society if MPs have to demonstrate &quot;public interest&quot; for their leaks. It means that you and I have the same defence if we do the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the original post, Unity uses the word &#8220;immunity&#8221; to remind us that the same laws apply to MPs as the rest of us. MPs can speak more freely in the chamber than we can on Speakers&#8217; Corner, and their correspondence with constituents is protected. There are probably other mitigations. But overall, MPs are subject to the same laws as you and me.</p>
<p>That fact is something for which we should be grateful. Do you really want a House of Commons full of the same excrement that you find in Italy, where elected politicians hide behind their immunity until the statute of limitations frees them? </p>
<p>When UK politicians reveal &#8220;secret&#8221; information, they should be judged in the same way as you or me. Does the disclosure serve the public interest? If information is received that solely serves a party interest, MPs should report it to the police or shut down their brains (not difficult, I agree).</p>
<p>It is actually better for society if MPs have to demonstrate &#8220;public interest&#8221; for their leaks. It means that you and I have the same defence if we do the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Alisdair Cameron</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/01/we-are-the-angry-mo/#comment-26173</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisdair Cameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1691#comment-26173</guid>
		<description>@ Sally (no.80)
&quot;Michael Howard’s solution to everything was to give the police more power. His solution to miscarriages of justice was to let the police destroy evidence from a case much earlier than before. Therefore the chance of the miscarriage ever coming to light would be reduced.&quot;
Agreed.
BUT did Blunkett, reid, Jacqui Smith etc etc remove any of those powers from the police? No. These days the Police don&#039;t destroy evidence so much: instaed the investigation onto any of their wrongdoings is whitewashed (de Menezes, Forest gate. No apologies, let alone restitution etc)
No, the Tories aren&#039;t tremendous friends of civil liberties in practice. Neither, though are New Labour:ID cards, censorship, blocks on freedom of assembly,barring protests, Brian Haw...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Sally (no.80)<br />
&#8220;Michael Howard’s solution to everything was to give the police more power. His solution to miscarriages of justice was to let the police destroy evidence from a case much earlier than before. Therefore the chance of the miscarriage ever coming to light would be reduced.&#8221;<br />
Agreed.<br />
BUT did Blunkett, reid, Jacqui Smith etc etc remove any of those powers from the police? No. These days the Police don&#8217;t destroy evidence so much: instaed the investigation onto any of their wrongdoings is whitewashed (de Menezes, Forest gate. No apologies, let alone restitution etc)<br />
No, the Tories aren&#8217;t tremendous friends of civil liberties in practice. Neither, though are New Labour:ID cards, censorship, blocks on freedom of assembly,barring protests, Brian Haw&#8230;</p>
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