<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: A real horror show</title>
	<atom:link href="http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/</link>
	<description>Left-wing news, opinion and activism</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 17:22:46 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: dreamingspire</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24303</link>
		<dc:creator>dreamingspire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24303</guid>
		<description>Mike K: You put your finger on the real dilemma: local v national. But I&#039;m against national, as it leads (already has) to statism, i.e. attempts to control detail from afar, by people who do not have any connection with the local situation. Local is best, but linked through to the national standards. Trouble is, at the centre we have forgotten how to do it. An old man, now passed on, used to drive for the CEGB. In those early days of the National Grid, they had to keep all the power station managers up to scratch (there were many more managers and no internet), and so there was a whole hierarchy of meetings, with senior managers being driven all over the country from regional HQs, and more senior managers being driven around (and also to some power stations) from national HQ - the old man was one of the drivers. The answer is that we are social beings, and we have to interact meaningfully right up and down a structure that stretches from the front line to the very top. Yes, we can use the internet (and recently I was in a very productive meeting where some of the group were in London and others in Scotland, but it was like we were in adjacent rooms with a big open window in the party wall: a large video screen on the wall of our room brought us together, and the link was via the internet). The failure now is that we make policy in secret in London, and then issue it like tablets from the oracle - the policymakers hide their incompetence by staying in the bunker. Why so? Because some public policy was made like that, at a time when local was really local, cut off from the centre - and the centre did not want to know about detail of local implementation. The lesson from the CEGB is that needing to meet national standards right across a network needs a different management method and structure, but too many of our public administration departments in central govt have failed to adapt to that - they do things like creating Agencies, but then lose touch with them as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike K: You put your finger on the real dilemma: local v national. But I&#8217;m against national, as it leads (already has) to statism, i.e. attempts to control detail from afar, by people who do not have any connection with the local situation. Local is best, but linked through to the national standards. Trouble is, at the centre we have forgotten how to do it. An old man, now passed on, used to drive for the CEGB. In those early days of the National Grid, they had to keep all the power station managers up to scratch (there were many more managers and no internet), and so there was a whole hierarchy of meetings, with senior managers being driven all over the country from regional HQs, and more senior managers being driven around (and also to some power stations) from national HQ &#8211; the old man was one of the drivers. The answer is that we are social beings, and we have to interact meaningfully right up and down a structure that stretches from the front line to the very top. Yes, we can use the internet (and recently I was in a very productive meeting where some of the group were in London and others in Scotland, but it was like we were in adjacent rooms with a big open window in the party wall: a large video screen on the wall of our room brought us together, and the link was via the internet). The failure now is that we make policy in secret in London, and then issue it like tablets from the oracle &#8211; the policymakers hide their incompetence by staying in the bunker. Why so? Because some public policy was made like that, at a time when local was really local, cut off from the centre &#8211; and the centre did not want to know about detail of local implementation. The lesson from the CEGB is that needing to meet national standards right across a network needs a different management method and structure, but too many of our public administration departments in central govt have failed to adapt to that &#8211; they do things like creating Agencies, but then lose touch with them as well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: septicisle</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24281</link>
		<dc:creator>septicisle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24281</guid>
		<description>ac256: that&#039;s quite a compliment, thank you.

Curly: See, I don&#039;t think that Brown was being uncaring at all.  He did exactly what most would have expected of him on the first two answers; it was only when Cameron was angered by the shouting of the Labour backbenchers that he responded in kind.  The rush to judgement by all sides now is what I find far more troubling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ac256: that&#8217;s quite a compliment, thank you.</p>
<p>Curly: See, I don&#8217;t think that Brown was being uncaring at all.  He did exactly what most would have expected of him on the first two answers; it was only when Cameron was angered by the shouting of the Labour backbenchers that he responded in kind.  The rush to judgement by all sides now is what I find far more troubling.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Curly</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24279</link>
		<dc:creator>Curly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24279</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure that bloggers were reacting to the cold, offhand, unfeeling, uncaring attitude displayed by the Prime Minister, who appeared to have been woefully briefed on the affair.
Ed Balls&#039; later actions appear to vindicate Cameron&#039;s stance but the bigger questions will be how long we have to wait for answers in Haringey, and who, if anyone, will be held accountable and responsible?

I doubt that these scenes would have occurred with Tony Blair at the Despatch Box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure that bloggers were reacting to the cold, offhand, unfeeling, uncaring attitude displayed by the Prime Minister, who appeared to have been woefully briefed on the affair.<br />
Ed Balls&#8217; later actions appear to vindicate Cameron&#8217;s stance but the bigger questions will be how long we have to wait for answers in Haringey, and who, if anyone, will be held accountable and responsible?</p>
<p>I doubt that these scenes would have occurred with Tony Blair at the Despatch Box.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sally</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24278</link>
		<dc:creator>sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24278</guid>
		<description>The Conservatives are in no position to complain about  social services.   The Right wing has put huge pressure on politically over the last 30years to keep children with their natural parents.  Any time a child is taken from their ‘real parents’ the right wing press howls their anger of political correctness gone mad. 

When a pretty white child goes missing the tabloids go to town, and they just love a paedophile story. It gives them the chance to drum up fear of the stranger. Yet about one child a week is killed in this country every week by their  natural parents. Alas, See todays news. 

The very fack those two tory pillocks   Guido Fawkes and Iain Dale  are frothing at the mouth tells you all you need to know about this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Conservatives are in no position to complain about  social services.   The Right wing has put huge pressure on politically over the last 30years to keep children with their natural parents.  Any time a child is taken from their ‘real parents’ the right wing press howls their anger of political correctness gone mad. </p>
<p>When a pretty white child goes missing the tabloids go to town, and they just love a paedophile story. It gives them the chance to drum up fear of the stranger. Yet about one child a week is killed in this country every week by their  natural parents. Alas, See todays news. </p>
<p>The very fack those two tory pillocks   Guido Fawkes and Iain Dale  are frothing at the mouth tells you all you need to know about this issue.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Killingworth</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24263</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Killingworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24263</guid>
		<description>Part of me agrees with Charlotte Ritchie (from Oxford Brookes Univeristy, writing in to-day&#039;s &quot;Guardian&quot;): &lt;blockquote&gt;Every child death is a tragedy, but it is time that the media and the government stops demanding inquiries and wanting answers... The brutal fact is that there are no answers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

To-day&#039;s tragic news from Manchester only re-inforces that.

It does, on the other hand, occur to me that if company directors can be open to prosecution for corporate manslaughter in the case of gross H&amp;S breaches leading to fatalities, there may be a case for making elected councillors similarly liable in the case of gross failures of child protection. 

Or, alternatively - is this an appropriate local government function? Presumably we don&#039;t think that local electorates really want the opportunity to choose between philosophies of child protection at the ballot box. I suspect that this is an area, like the administration of justice, where we want the same high standard applied irrespective of locality. That would suggest that local councils aren&#039;t the right employers for child protection workers - move them into the Probation Service, maybe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of me agrees with Charlotte Ritchie (from Oxford Brookes Univeristy, writing in to-day&#8217;s &#8220;Guardian&#8221;):<br />
<blockquote>Every child death is a tragedy, but it is time that the media and the government stops demanding inquiries and wanting answers&#8230; The brutal fact is that there are no answers.</p></blockquote>
<p>To-day&#8217;s tragic news from Manchester only re-inforces that.</p>
<p>It does, on the other hand, occur to me that if company directors can be open to prosecution for corporate manslaughter in the case of gross H&amp;S breaches leading to fatalities, there may be a case for making elected councillors similarly liable in the case of gross failures of child protection. </p>
<p>Or, alternatively &#8211; is this an appropriate local government function? Presumably we don&#8217;t think that local electorates really want the opportunity to choose between philosophies of child protection at the ballot box. I suspect that this is an area, like the administration of justice, where we want the same high standard applied irrespective of locality. That would suggest that local councils aren&#8217;t the right employers for child protection workers &#8211; move them into the Probation Service, maybe?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron Heath</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24246</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Heath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24246</guid>
		<description>Leon, heh.

Re. Yesterday

I just said over at Justin&#039;s that this is a case of shame on both their houses. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder...

Cameron must be getting pissed off with Brown&#039;s constant and blunt refusal to answer a straight question. And it is the duty of the LOHMLO to hold the government to account. I can understand if Cameron becomes annoyed if the PM continues to belittle his questioning by his avoidance techniques, but Cameron should have risen above the fray once it was clear Brown wasn&#039;t going to retract the accusation of playing party politics.

Had he made his feelings clear and moved on, he would have been the Statesman to Brown&#039;s partisan beast.

In fairness Cameron probably did see capital in this line of question. It&#039;s in his nature. Anyone who watches Cameron closely could say he is anything more than a political animal. He&#039;s never convinced me of any hidden intellectual or ideological vigour. He&#039;s a careerist and a prominently placed spin-doctor.

Had he any real class, he would have called Brown on his slur, and moved on. We don&#039;t pay Cameron to be overly sensitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leon, heh.</p>
<p>Re. Yesterday</p>
<p>I just said over at Justin&#8217;s that this is a case of shame on both their houses. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder&#8230;</p>
<p>Cameron must be getting pissed off with Brown&#8217;s constant and blunt refusal to answer a straight question. And it is the duty of the LOHMLO to hold the government to account. I can understand if Cameron becomes annoyed if the PM continues to belittle his questioning by his avoidance techniques, but Cameron should have risen above the fray once it was clear Brown wasn&#8217;t going to retract the accusation of playing party politics.</p>
<p>Had he made his feelings clear and moved on, he would have been the Statesman to Brown&#8217;s partisan beast.</p>
<p>In fairness Cameron probably did see capital in this line of question. It&#8217;s in his nature. Anyone who watches Cameron closely could say he is anything more than a political animal. He&#8217;s never convinced me of any hidden intellectual or ideological vigour. He&#8217;s a careerist and a prominently placed spin-doctor.</p>
<p>Had he any real class, he would have called Brown on his slur, and moved on. We don&#8217;t pay Cameron to be overly sensitive.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Leon</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24244</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24244</guid>
		<description>Sunny/Aaron 2012!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny/Aaron 2012!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron Heath</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24243</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Heath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24243</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Those bloggers are looking to score points off the RESPONSE to the killing, not the killing itself.&lt;/em&gt;

Score points? Are bloggers running for political office?

If so, you can get your Aaron4Pres buttons and bumper stickers from the usual vendors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Those bloggers are looking to score points off the RESPONSE to the killing, not the killing itself.</em></p>
<p>Score points? Are bloggers running for political office?</p>
<p>If so, you can get your Aaron4Pres buttons and bumper stickers from the usual vendors.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Darrell</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24240</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24240</guid>
		<description>Ac256,

I still rather feel that The Guardian this morning was right to point out that Cameron did seem to be returning to his &#039;broken Britain&#039; narrative and that he was not blameless in how it handled it and that as the BBC said in it&#039;s anylysis of PMQ&#039;s it will be hard for him to avoid the charge he was politicising the issue. 

Nobody is saying Cameron didnt have a right to raise it but the manner in which he did leaves me with the distinct impression that he was looking to take an advantage for himself and his party out of it. 

In response to your substantive points then yes there should be resignations and people should be held accountable. However, I find Camerons entire manner of handling this irresponsible, partisan and as distasteful and Brown&#039;s &#039;tin ear&#039; and clunky response....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ac256,</p>
<p>I still rather feel that The Guardian this morning was right to point out that Cameron did seem to be returning to his &#8216;broken Britain&#8217; narrative and that he was not blameless in how it handled it and that as the BBC said in it&#8217;s anylysis of PMQ&#8217;s it will be hard for him to avoid the charge he was politicising the issue. </p>
<p>Nobody is saying Cameron didnt have a right to raise it but the manner in which he did leaves me with the distinct impression that he was looking to take an advantage for himself and his party out of it. </p>
<p>In response to your substantive points then yes there should be resignations and people should be held accountable. However, I find Camerons entire manner of handling this irresponsible, partisan and as distasteful and Brown&#8217;s &#8216;tin ear&#8217; and clunky response&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ac256</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24238</link>
		<dc:creator>ac256</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24238</guid>
		<description>Those bloggers are looking to score points off the RESPONSE to the killing, not the killing itself.

Surely people of all political persuasions wonder when there will be an apology and resignations?

Don&#039;t you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those bloggers are looking to score points off the RESPONSE to the killing, not the killing itself.</p>
<p>Surely people of all political persuasions wonder when there will be an apology and resignations?</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t you?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Darrell</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24237</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24237</guid>
		<description>Ac256,

It wasn&#039;t that the issue was &#039;taken up&#039; it was the way it was taken up ie, in an explicitly partisan way. Guido Fawkes branded Brown &#039;emotionally retarded&#039; and Iain Dale said that it should put &#039;steel in the backbone of Conservatives to show Brown the door&#039;. Two examples of the fact that Tory bloggers were clearly looking to score political points off the issue...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ac256,</p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t that the issue was &#8216;taken up&#8217; it was the way it was taken up ie, in an explicitly partisan way. Guido Fawkes branded Brown &#8216;emotionally retarded&#8217; and Iain Dale said that it should put &#8216;steel in the backbone of Conservatives to show Brown the door&#8217;. Two examples of the fact that Tory bloggers were clearly looking to score political points off the issue&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ac256</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24236</link>
		<dc:creator>ac256</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24236</guid>
		<description>This is the best written piece I have ever read on Liberal Conspiracy. The merit of it is that it tells things as they were, without bias.

Cameron&#039;s opening questions were reasonable, the sort of questions anyone of any political shade would want answers to. 

Brown has unfortunately developed a fatal habit of reaming off &#039;facts&#039; instead of answering questions at PMQs. Like his predecessor, he debases the session, which is one of the most watched moments in the commons.

It was Brown who introduced the spectre of party politics. Just because the case of that poor child is taken up more by bloggers on one side of the line does not make it any less deserving of proper political scrutiny.

Cameron was entitled to ask for a witdrawal, and Brown, by ignoring the request, came away comprehensively worse off to the eyes of any observer.

The exchange demonstrated that behind the slick new spin operation which has prevailed since Mandelson&#039;s return, the PM is still a liability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the best written piece I have ever read on Liberal Conspiracy. The merit of it is that it tells things as they were, without bias.</p>
<p>Cameron&#8217;s opening questions were reasonable, the sort of questions anyone of any political shade would want answers to. </p>
<p>Brown has unfortunately developed a fatal habit of reaming off &#8216;facts&#8217; instead of answering questions at PMQs. Like his predecessor, he debases the session, which is one of the most watched moments in the commons.</p>
<p>It was Brown who introduced the spectre of party politics. Just because the case of that poor child is taken up more by bloggers on one side of the line does not make it any less deserving of proper political scrutiny.</p>
<p>Cameron was entitled to ask for a witdrawal, and Brown, by ignoring the request, came away comprehensively worse off to the eyes of any observer.</p>
<p>The exchange demonstrated that behind the slick new spin operation which has prevailed since Mandelson&#8217;s return, the PM is still a liability.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Darrell</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/13/a-real-horror-show/#comment-24232</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1617#comment-24232</guid>
		<description>Both were as bad as each other but several factors combined to make Brown&#039;s charge that Cameron was politicising the issue look valid and besides as you note the Tory blogsphere made it such for the entire day. Tory bloggers were lining up from here to the ends of the earth to essentially validate Brown&#039;s charge that they were making this a party political issue. 

As The Guardian editorial notes this morning it is hard to avoid the impression at times that Cameron was making a return to his &#039;broken Britain&#039; narrative which would be unsurprising given how flat-footed the Conservatives have been on the economy. 

In the end the real loser will be the political process though because the whole thing was shabby and tawdry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both were as bad as each other but several factors combined to make Brown&#8217;s charge that Cameron was politicising the issue look valid and besides as you note the Tory blogsphere made it such for the entire day. Tory bloggers were lining up from here to the ends of the earth to essentially validate Brown&#8217;s charge that they were making this a party political issue. </p>
<p>As The Guardian editorial notes this morning it is hard to avoid the impression at times that Cameron was making a return to his &#8216;broken Britain&#8217; narrative which would be unsurprising given how flat-footed the Conservatives have been on the economy. </p>
<p>In the end the real loser will be the political process though because the whole thing was shabby and tawdry.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

