Comments on: Sunny’s report from the fringe: on class and culture http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/ Left-wing news, opinion and activism Thu, 24 May 2012 06:05:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: jungle http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21263 jungle Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:13:49 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21263 Michael: "However it is undeniable that both whites and non-whites are angry about having to compete for social housing with large numbers of recent arrivals many of whom cannot speak English." I've looked quite heavily into this issue (I work in housing) and I think this impression is largely mistaken. If you look at most minorities (especially South Asians), they are less likely to be in social housing, per head, than white people - and this despite the fact they have much lower incomes. If you adjust for incomes, all these groups - except the Afro-Caribbean minority, who have not really been the target of the recent tabloid rage - are far less likely to get social housing than their financial position would suggest. The real fact is that there is virtually no social rented housing being built for anyone, but there is a concerted effort in the tabloid media to blame this fact on Muslims and/or Poles - groups who live overwhelmingly in private rented housing, very often overcrowded. Michael: “However it is undeniable that both whites and non-whites are angry about having to compete for social housing with large numbers of recent arrivals many of whom cannot speak English.”

I’ve looked quite heavily into this issue (I work in housing) and I think this impression is largely mistaken.

If you look at most minorities (especially South Asians), they are less likely to be in social housing, per head, than white people – and this despite the fact they have much lower incomes. If you adjust for incomes, all these groups – except the Afro-Caribbean minority, who have not really been the target of the recent tabloid rage – are far less likely to get social housing than their financial position would suggest.

The real fact is that there is virtually no social rented housing being built for anyone, but there is a concerted effort in the tabloid media to blame this fact on Muslims and/or Poles – groups who live overwhelmingly in private rented housing, very often overcrowded.

]]> By: Falco http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21260 Falco Mon, 22 Sep 2008 01:27:29 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21260 The problem is the belief that people are entitled to be given things beyond very basic necessities. The attitude that "immigrants are stealing our housing" rests on the idea that anyone is entitled to more than a safety net and the opportunity to move beyond that. Some deregulation to stimulate opportunity and low income groups being given a basic allowance taking them out of income tax , (rather than the pathetic tax credits), combined with a gradual reduction in welfare would be far more helpful than council housing and the poverty trap. The problem is the belief that people are entitled to be given things beyond very basic necessities. The attitude that “immigrants are stealing our housing” rests on the idea that anyone is entitled to more than a safety net and the opportunity to move beyond that.

Some deregulation to stimulate opportunity and low income groups being given a basic allowance taking them out of income tax , (rather than the pathetic tax credits), combined with a gradual reduction in welfare would be far more helpful than council housing and the poverty trap.

]]> By: Darrell http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21259 Darrell Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:40:10 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21259 Thought provoking post....I think you are totally right about the left's inability to deal with what you call emotional issues...when it does produce a narrative it is something that is well-intentioned but riddled with problems like multiculturalism which in my mind has done more harm than good...and the reason it produces narratives like this is an fundemental inability to deal with the real world and the application of perfectly correct principles in the real world.... Thought provoking post….I think you are totally right about the left’s inability to deal with what you call emotional issues…when it does produce a narrative it is something that is well-intentioned but riddled with problems like multiculturalism which in my mind has done more harm than good…and the reason it produces narratives like this is an fundemental inability to deal with the real world and the application of perfectly correct principles in the real world….

]]> By: fairgame http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21251 fairgame Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:45:12 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21251 white working class? are we talking about America here? populism doesnt mean pandering to BNP voters; it means standing up for majority, in this country. white working class? are we talking about America here? populism doesnt mean pandering to BNP voters; it means standing up for majority, in this country.

]]> By: thomas http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21244 thomas Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:40:19 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21244 Michael, you're not disagreeing with Sunny. The point which is being raised is about how politicians use issues to manipulate public opinion for electoral benefit - it's people vs party politics. On a side note I'm embarrassed for Cruddas, he keeps shooting himself in the foot as he gets ever more entangled in the self-serving interests of the Labour establishment. Michael, you’re not disagreeing with Sunny.

The point which is being raised is about how politicians use issues to manipulate public opinion for electoral benefit – it’s people vs party politics.

On a side note I’m embarrassed for Cruddas, he keeps shooting himself in the foot as he gets ever more entangled in the self-serving interests of the Labour establishment.

]]> By: Michael Hucknall http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21241 Michael Hucknall Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:55:17 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21241 Sunny your missing the point, it's not white vs ethnic minority. However it is undeniable that both whites and non-whites are angry about having to compete for social housing with large numbers of recent arrivals many of whom cannot speak English. Sunny your missing the point, it’s not white vs ethnic minority. However it is undeniable that both whites and non-whites are angry about having to compete for social housing with large numbers of recent arrivals many of whom cannot speak English.

]]> By: Sunny Hundal http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21240 Sunny Hundal Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:02:55 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21240 Hi Lorna - I'm not denying that the lack of social housing is an issue. The question is, why is it posed as a direct fight between white and ethnic minority working classes - when that isnt what the evidence bears out. My view is that in many cases resources are being used as an excuse to raise fears about new immigrants and being unable to connect to them. Hi Lorna – I’m not denying that the lack of social housing is an issue. The question is, why is it posed as a direct fight between white and ethnic minority working classes – when that isnt what the evidence bears out.

My view is that in many cases resources are being used as an excuse to raise fears about new immigrants and being unable to connect to them.

]]> By: ad http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21239 ad Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:43:29 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21239 "Many white working class families feel disempowered" People who feel disempowered usually feel that way because they don't have any power, other people have power over them, and they use that power in ways the disempowered disapprove of. Taking the word "disempowered" literally, the people who feel that way did have more power in the past. “Many white working class families feel disempowered”

People who feel disempowered usually feel that way because they don’t have any power, other people have power over them, and they use that power in ways the disempowered disapprove of.

Taking the word “disempowered” literally, the people who feel that way did have more power in the past.

]]> By: Michael Hucknall http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21238 Michael Hucknall Sun, 21 Sep 2008 12:34:23 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21238 The beginning of an answer would be for the Left to end it's unthinking support for unfettered immigration. Almost all voters whether they be Labour, LibDem or Tory, whether they be white or from an ethnic background, agree that immigration controls should be far stricter and overall levels should slow down so that communities have a chance to get used to eachother. The beginning of an answer would be for the Left to end it’s unthinking support for unfettered immigration.

Almost all voters whether they be Labour, LibDem or Tory, whether they be white or from an ethnic background, agree that immigration controls should be far stricter and overall levels should slow down so that communities have a chance to get used to eachother.

]]> By: Nino http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21237 Nino Sun, 21 Sep 2008 12:25:05 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21237 Its not just the problem of inability to communicate with ethnic minority neighbours it also involves fear over whether the right "middle class in-jargon" is being used when talking with officials and political representatives. "Empowerment" usually entails having or being taught how to communicate effectively and this, in both white working class as well as ethnic minority communities, has been sadly lacking of late. Its not just the problem of inability to communicate with ethnic minority neighbours it also involves fear over whether the right “middle class in-jargon” is being used when talking with officials and political representatives. “Empowerment” usually entails having or being taught how to communicate effectively and this, in both white working class as well as ethnic minority communities, has been sadly lacking of late.

]]> By: Lorna Spenceley http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/21/sunnys-report-from-the-fringe-on-class-and-culture/#comment-21235 Lorna Spenceley Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:26:45 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1299#comment-21235 I disagree that housing is merely a proxy for other issues - in my constituency, as in others, the desperate shortage of suitable affordable accommodation for families is appalling. Overcrowding is rife, with no quick solutions on offer - a grandmother in a bedsit with two infant grandchildren, and a couple with three teenage children (mixed sexes) in a two-bedroomed maisonette, neither with any prospect of appropriate housing in even the medium term, are just two of the families I know of recently. I disagree that housing is merely a proxy for other issues – in my constituency, as in others, the desperate shortage of suitable affordable accommodation for families is appalling. Overcrowding is rife, with no quick solutions on offer – a grandmother in a bedsit with two infant grandchildren, and a couple with three teenage children (mixed sexes) in a two-bedroomed maisonette, neither with any prospect of appropriate housing in even the medium term, are just two of the families I know of recently.

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