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	<title>Comments on: The old ideologies are dead, comrades</title>
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		<title>By: Anittah Patrick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21156</link>
		<dc:creator>Anittah Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21156</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How do we engage in the ‘class struggle’ in a society in which the norm is to treat class as a function of lifestyle and not as something defined by the individual’s relationship to the means of production.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But isn&#039;t an individual&#039;s relationship to the means of production a function, at least in part, of lifestyle?

Which is to say, is not one&#039;s lifestyle during their formative years highly correlated to what their adult relationship to the means of production will be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How do we engage in the ‘class struggle’ in a society in which the norm is to treat class as a function of lifestyle and not as something defined by the individual’s relationship to the means of production.</p></blockquote>
<p>But isn&#8217;t an individual&#8217;s relationship to the means of production a function, at least in part, of lifestyle?</p>
<p>Which is to say, is not one&#8217;s lifestyle during their formative years highly correlated to what their adult relationship to the means of production will be?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Moss</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21050</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Moss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21050</guid>
		<description>Re. altuistic man and evolutionary ethics, I *really* wish more on the left were familiar with (and convinced by) Peter Singer&#039;s &quot;A Darwinian Left: Politics, Evolution and Cooperation,&quot; better than Nudge and a good decade or so earlier http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1999----02.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. altuistic man and evolutionary ethics, I *really* wish more on the left were familiar with (and convinced by) Peter Singer&#8217;s &#8220;A Darwinian Left: Politics, Evolution and Cooperation,&#8221; better than Nudge and a good decade or so earlier <a href="http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1999----02.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1999&#8212;-02.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21045</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21045</guid>
		<description>No probs - and it&#039;s a good read as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No probs &#8211; and it&#8217;s a good read as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21041</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21041</guid>
		<description>&quot;If that’s not a purely rhetorical question, Nick, then you’ll find at least part of the answer in Isaiah Berlin’s critiques of Rousseau, Hegel and Saint-Simon, which are published in “Freedom and its Betrayal: Six Enemies of Human Liberty” - http://tinyurl.com/5a3rw4&quot;

I&#039;ll add it to my reading list. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If that’s not a purely rhetorical question, Nick, then you’ll find at least part of the answer in Isaiah Berlin’s critiques of Rousseau, Hegel and Saint-Simon, which are published in “Freedom and its Betrayal: Six Enemies of Human Liberty” &#8211; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/5a3rw4" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/5a3rw4</a>&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll add it to my reading list. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Griffin</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21040</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21040</guid>
		<description>Pretty good link there Nick, cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty good link there Nick, cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21039</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21039</guid>
		<description>Indeed. Even relatively leftwing analysis find it difficult to deny the ability of this &quot;neo-liberal&quot; market ability to lift people out of poverty: http://www.gapminder.org/downloads/presentations/human-development-trends-2005.html

I don&#039;t think this crash will turn back the clock, unless socialists use it as an opportunity to grab the helm!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed. Even relatively leftwing analysis find it difficult to deny the ability of this &#8220;neo-liberal&#8221; market ability to lift people out of poverty: <a href="http://www.gapminder.org/downloads/presentations/human-development-trends-2005.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.gapminder.org/downloads/presentations/human-development-trends-2005.html</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this crash will turn back the clock, unless socialists use it as an opportunity to grab the helm!</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21038</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21038</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The only question is why collectivists always want to contract out this innate morality in individuals to state agencies!&lt;/i&gt;

Because all political theories begin from the same foundation, a set of assumptions about the nature of human nature itself, much of which is mere guesswork.

That&#039;s where the work of Hauser and others becomes interesting, because what evolutionary psychology is beginning to unpick in a very nuanced and subtle way, is the question of human nature and its complexities.

What is it? 

What are the givens? 

How is it shaped by the interplay of biology, environment and culture and what ways does this manifest itself?

It what situations are we more (or most inclined) to respond to reciprocity rather than self-interest and vice versa and what are the limitations of such responses?

If that&#039;s not a purely rhetorical question, Nick, then you&#039;ll find at least part of the answer in Isaiah Berlin&#039;s critiques of Rousseau, Hegel and Saint-Simon, which are published in &quot;Freedom and its Betrayal: Six Enemies of Human Liberty&quot; - http://tinyurl.com/5a3rw4</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The only question is why collectivists always want to contract out this innate morality in individuals to state agencies!</i></p>
<p>Because all political theories begin from the same foundation, a set of assumptions about the nature of human nature itself, much of which is mere guesswork.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s where the work of Hauser and others becomes interesting, because what evolutionary psychology is beginning to unpick in a very nuanced and subtle way, is the question of human nature and its complexities.</p>
<p>What is it? </p>
<p>What are the givens? </p>
<p>How is it shaped by the interplay of biology, environment and culture and what ways does this manifest itself?</p>
<p>It what situations are we more (or most inclined) to respond to reciprocity rather than self-interest and vice versa and what are the limitations of such responses?</p>
<p>If that&#8217;s not a purely rhetorical question, Nick, then you&#8217;ll find at least part of the answer in Isaiah Berlin&#8217;s critiques of Rousseau, Hegel and Saint-Simon, which are published in &#8220;Freedom and its Betrayal: Six Enemies of Human Liberty&#8221; &#8211; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/5a3rw4" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/5a3rw4</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Meredith</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21037</link>
		<dc:creator>John Meredith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21037</guid>
		<description>&quot;At a time when the neoliberal project is coming apart at the seams I don’t think appeals to Kant’s critiques will cut it.&quot;

Except it isn&#039;t, or, at least, it isn&#039;t obvious that it is. The world economy keeps on growing and countless thousands who have been abandoned to desperate poverty by every other form of economic organisation are enriched by it. Of course, the derivative markets are f*cked, but I bet none of us needs any derivatives just now and have none to sell. I don&#039;t mean to be flippant (well, not much) and the situation could degenerate into a general economic disaster, but we just don&#039;t know yet, so it is not a good basis for searching for alternatives. All we know for sure, is that the years of &#039;neoliberalism&#039; have masisvely enriched the world where those policies have applied (although we cand debate the fairness of how thos riches have been distributed), and the working classes of all nations seem to have noticed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;At a time when the neoliberal project is coming apart at the seams I don’t think appeals to Kant’s critiques will cut it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Except it isn&#8217;t, or, at least, it isn&#8217;t obvious that it is. The world economy keeps on growing and countless thousands who have been abandoned to desperate poverty by every other form of economic organisation are enriched by it. Of course, the derivative markets are f*cked, but I bet none of us needs any derivatives just now and have none to sell. I don&#8217;t mean to be flippant (well, not much) and the situation could degenerate into a general economic disaster, but we just don&#8217;t know yet, so it is not a good basis for searching for alternatives. All we know for sure, is that the years of &#8216;neoliberalism&#8217; have masisvely enriched the world where those policies have applied (although we cand debate the fairness of how thos riches have been distributed), and the working classes of all nations seem to have noticed.</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21036</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21036</guid>
		<description>Oh good, I see we&#039;ve got the attention of the Chief Political Correspondent of the Daily Sport in Today (not you, Mike!)

&lt;i&gt;This neatly encapsulates why the ‘left’ have tied themselves up in knots.
People want healthcare free at the point of use, they don’t want their children saddled with a mountain of debt even before they have to think about buying a house or funding a pension. How that is financed should be the driving issue - this can only be achieved through redistribution in an economy that dictates that a majority will never earn enough to afford adequate provision. It’s called social democracy.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually what its called is &#039;its not that easy!&#039; - try acquainting yourself fully with the issues that derailed Harold Wilson&#039;s attempts to introduce a socialist/social democratic programme, and in particular his disputes with Lord Cromer, the then-Governor of the Bank of England during the course of the 1964-66 parliament.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/1995/may/25/obituaries

&lt;i&gt;In fact none of the four Wilson governments was free from economic crises in one form or another. The 1966 election victory gave him a majority of 97, but by July the government was plunged into its worst crisis of all: a seamen&#039;s strike exacerbated an already tense financial situation. Inflation at home led to a run on the pound and a severe strain on reserves. Devaluation was discussed and advocated by George Brown - but rejected by Wilson. Rumours spread about a cabinet crisis and a possible putsch against Wilson. The government scrambled through - far from the harmonious band their majority had promised.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh good, I see we&#8217;ve got the attention of the Chief Political Correspondent of the Daily Sport in Today (not you, Mike!)</p>
<p><i>This neatly encapsulates why the ‘left’ have tied themselves up in knots.<br />
People want healthcare free at the point of use, they don’t want their children saddled with a mountain of debt even before they have to think about buying a house or funding a pension. How that is financed should be the driving issue &#8211; this can only be achieved through redistribution in an economy that dictates that a majority will never earn enough to afford adequate provision. It’s called social democracy.</i></p>
<p>Actually what its called is &#8216;its not that easy!&#8217; &#8211; try acquainting yourself fully with the issues that derailed Harold Wilson&#8217;s attempts to introduce a socialist/social democratic programme, and in particular his disputes with Lord Cromer, the then-Governor of the Bank of England during the course of the 1964-66 parliament.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/1995/may/25/obituaries" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/1995/may/25/obituaries</a></p>
<p><i>In fact none of the four Wilson governments was free from economic crises in one form or another. The 1966 election victory gave him a majority of 97, but by July the government was plunged into its worst crisis of all: a seamen&#8217;s strike exacerbated an already tense financial situation. Inflation at home led to a run on the pound and a severe strain on reserves. Devaluation was discussed and advocated by George Brown &#8211; but rejected by Wilson. Rumours spread about a cabinet crisis and a possible putsch against Wilson. The government scrambled through &#8211; far from the harmonious band their majority had promised.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21035</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21035</guid>
		<description>&quot;Brain tissue is costly in terms of energy, so if humans could do without the brain machinery for processing morality, they would do so.&quot;

Indeed. The only question is why collectivists always want to contract out this innate morality in individuals to state agencies!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Brain tissue is costly in terms of energy, so if humans could do without the brain machinery for processing morality, they would do so.&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed. The only question is why collectivists always want to contract out this innate morality in individuals to state agencies!</p>
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		<title>By: anotherplanet</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21031</link>
		<dc:creator>anotherplanet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21031</guid>
		<description>&quot;can I recommend Marc Hauser’s exploration of the evolutionary foundations of morality, ‘Moral Minds‘, in which he advances a fascinating hypothesis: that humans possess an innate, universal moral ’sense’ that functions as a Rawlsian ‘black box’ and acts as a trigger for the Humean/Emotional and Kantian/Intellectual moral thinking with which we’re all rather more familiar.&quot;

This neatly encapsulates why the &#039;left&#039; have tied themselves up in knots.
People want healthcare free at the point of use, they don&#039;t want their children saddled with a mountain of debt even before they have to think about buying a house or funding a pension. How that is financed should be the driving issue - this can only be achieved through redistribution in an economy that dictates that a majority will never earn enouh to afford adequate provision. It&#039;s called social democracy.

At a time when the neoliberal project is coming apart at the seams I don&#039;t think appeals to Kant&#039;s critiques will cut it.

Priceless!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;can I recommend Marc Hauser’s exploration of the evolutionary foundations of morality, ‘Moral Minds‘, in which he advances a fascinating hypothesis: that humans possess an innate, universal moral ’sense’ that functions as a Rawlsian ‘black box’ and acts as a trigger for the Humean/Emotional and Kantian/Intellectual moral thinking with which we’re all rather more familiar.&#8221;</p>
<p>This neatly encapsulates why the &#8216;left&#8217; have tied themselves up in knots.<br />
People want healthcare free at the point of use, they don&#8217;t want their children saddled with a mountain of debt even before they have to think about buying a house or funding a pension. How that is financed should be the driving issue &#8211; this can only be achieved through redistribution in an economy that dictates that a majority will never earn enouh to afford adequate provision. It&#8217;s called social democracy.</p>
<p>At a time when the neoliberal project is coming apart at the seams I don&#8217;t think appeals to Kant&#8217;s critiques will cut it.</p>
<p>Priceless!</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Killingworth</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21029</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Killingworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21029</guid>
		<description>Many thanks, Unity - this is very much in line with what I shall be saying (and provides some intellectual ballast for it). The French Revolution called for &quot;liberty, equality, fraternity&quot; and over 30 years ago David Donnison wrote a short article saying that the problem of the Left was its pursuit of the second at the expense of the third. Indeed, the understanding of the last term by the British Left had by then degenerated into a fetishism of solidarity on the picket-line, developed by the CP and aped by the SWP and others. 

I too think we should ditch the narrative of struggle. Apart from anything else, it&#039;s intrinsically oppositionist and provides a poor preparation for the exercise of power which is presumably the purpose of political engagement. Worse, it precludes a proper valuation of the promotion of reciprocity - and it is the failure to promote reciprocity which will come to be seen as the biggest single failing of the current government since 1997. (Note to any ambitious twenty- or thirty-something Labourite reading this - if you want to be sure that you&#039;re not seen as the next Blair, bang on about this till the cows come home - apart, obviously, from not being in Parliament yet but having a safe seat lined up for the forthcoming election.) More seriously, if we ditch the narrative of struggle, we can also ditch the presupposition that it is &lt;i&gt;Labour&lt;/i&gt; who will deliver for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many thanks, Unity &#8211; this is very much in line with what I shall be saying (and provides some intellectual ballast for it). The French Revolution called for &#8220;liberty, equality, fraternity&#8221; and over 30 years ago David Donnison wrote a short article saying that the problem of the Left was its pursuit of the second at the expense of the third. Indeed, the understanding of the last term by the British Left had by then degenerated into a fetishism of solidarity on the picket-line, developed by the CP and aped by the SWP and others. </p>
<p>I too think we should ditch the narrative of struggle. Apart from anything else, it&#8217;s intrinsically oppositionist and provides a poor preparation for the exercise of power which is presumably the purpose of political engagement. Worse, it precludes a proper valuation of the promotion of reciprocity &#8211; and it is the failure to promote reciprocity which will come to be seen as the biggest single failing of the current government since 1997. (Note to any ambitious twenty- or thirty-something Labourite reading this &#8211; if you want to be sure that you&#8217;re not seen as the next Blair, bang on about this till the cows come home &#8211; apart, obviously, from not being in Parliament yet but having a safe seat lined up for the forthcoming election.) More seriously, if we ditch the narrative of struggle, we can also ditch the presupposition that it is <i>Labour</i> who will deliver for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Cabalamat</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21027</link>
		<dc:creator>Cabalamat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 04:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21027</guid>
		<description>Hauser&#039;s hypothesis must be basically right, given that humans evolved by natural selection and that, like all other living things, they must have evolved predispositions to behave in ways that maximise theirreproductive portential. Brain tissue is costly in terms of energy, so if humans could do without the brain machinery for processing morality, they would do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hauser&#8217;s hypothesis must be basically right, given that humans evolved by natural selection and that, like all other living things, they must have evolved predispositions to behave in ways that maximise theirreproductive portential. Brain tissue is costly in terms of energy, so if humans could do without the brain machinery for processing morality, they would do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunny Hundal</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/09/17/fanfare-for-the-altruistic-man/#comment-21025</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunny Hundal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1270#comment-21025</guid>
		<description>Phew! Not only is this relatively brief, but I agree with it!

Later this week, Mike Killingworth will kick off regular blogging on LC to specifically talk about the direction the liberal-left should take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phew! Not only is this relatively brief, but I agree with it!</p>
<p>Later this week, Mike Killingworth will kick off regular blogging on LC to specifically talk about the direction the liberal-left should take.</p>
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