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	<title>Comments on: Dads have been left out in the cold</title>
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	<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/</link>
	<description>Left-wing news, opinion and activism</description>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-30295</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-30295</guid>
		<description>Nice article.
I&#039;ve been happily married for the past 11 years, but I was so dissapointed with the way that fathers were treated in the UK and the decline in education standards that I moved to a Scandanavian country. I like the A-level mathematics example posted by Daniel above. I&#039;m a mathematician/computer scientist myself and have spotted the same trends that he has.

My children (of 6 and 8 years) have never been happier, they are multilingual and fathers are treated as importantly as they should be. That is, as equally importantly as mothers.

I feel that the current government in the UK are destroying the UK&#039;s children with their anti-male and declining &quot;one size fits all&quot; education policies. How you can have the likes of Harriet Harman as number two is beyond me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.<br />
I&#8217;ve been happily married for the past 11 years, but I was so dissapointed with the way that fathers were treated in the UK and the decline in education standards that I moved to a Scandanavian country. I like the A-level mathematics example posted by Daniel above. I&#8217;m a mathematician/computer scientist myself and have spotted the same trends that he has.</p>
<p>My children (of 6 and 8 years) have never been happier, they are multilingual and fathers are treated as importantly as they should be. That is, as equally importantly as mothers.</p>
<p>I feel that the current government in the UK are destroying the UK&#8217;s children with their anti-male and declining &#8220;one size fits all&#8221; education policies. How you can have the likes of Harriet Harman as number two is beyond me.</p>
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		<title>By: Leon Greenwell</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-28393</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon Greenwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-28393</guid>
		<description>There does seem to be a tendency to dispose of &#039;the father&#039; as a concept

A friend of mine was surprised by a mutual nurse of &#039;ours&#039; who arrived at his flat late at night, jumped his bones before he was awake, and skedaddled pregnant - I&#039;m still mortified almost 30 years later, despite having had a similar experience myself

I don&#039;t know what the solution may be.

Perhaps a state persecution of &#039;cultural christianity&#039;(sic) would help?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There does seem to be a tendency to dispose of &#8216;the father&#8217; as a concept</p>
<p>A friend of mine was surprised by a mutual nurse of &#8216;ours&#8217; who arrived at his flat late at night, jumped his bones before he was awake, and skedaddled pregnant &#8211; I&#8217;m still mortified almost 30 years later, despite having had a similar experience myself</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what the solution may be.</p>
<p>Perhaps a state persecution of &#8216;cultural christianity&#8217;(sic) would help?</p>
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		<title>By: ellie</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-25287</link>
		<dc:creator>ellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-25287</guid>
		<description>matt, 

you seem to be clouded my the miscomprehension  that regular, structured paternal contact (be it school-organised or not) has to involve some sort of junk food. That point is entirely moot, as the focus of this organisation was to provide a background of comfort and alterior gratification - in this case sugary treats (hooray!) - to detract from what could be an uncomfortable and unpleasant situation; as Humanite was referring to in the very beginning of these comments. Not to increase the proportion of overweight kiddies running around.

&quot;Why do the left always have such trouble untangling empirical cause and effect ?&quot;

firstly, i feel vaguely amused at your wonderfully brazen generalisation of &#039;the left&#039; - as if we were some sort of tree-hugging, armchair army; the personification of all irrational thought. Hmm.
be that as it may, i see little evidence in the previous comments against which you have tried to form a rebuttal of the entanglement of cause and effect; indeed in many other articles, that would warrant such an out-of-the-blue and clearly irrational steretype

there is more than a glimmer of resentment that these inferior, less intelligent mortals than yourself have an &#039;easy&#039; time of it, as clearly such new-fangled claptrap like &quot;calculators&quot; - *gasp* -have no place in modern education. i would just like to point out that in less priviledged school areas, 30% of the children will come away this summer with no GCSEs whatsoever. What is needed is a more universal standard of good quality education, and less grumbling about the good old days 


Oh, and just fyi, Everest has decreased 1.3m in height in the past 34 years ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>matt, </p>
<p>you seem to be clouded my the miscomprehension  that regular, structured paternal contact (be it school-organised or not) has to involve some sort of junk food. That point is entirely moot, as the focus of this organisation was to provide a background of comfort and alterior gratification &#8211; in this case sugary treats (hooray!) &#8211; to detract from what could be an uncomfortable and unpleasant situation; as Humanite was referring to in the very beginning of these comments. Not to increase the proportion of overweight kiddies running around.</p>
<p>&#8220;Why do the left always have such trouble untangling empirical cause and effect ?&#8221;</p>
<p>firstly, i feel vaguely amused at your wonderfully brazen generalisation of &#8216;the left&#8217; &#8211; as if we were some sort of tree-hugging, armchair army; the personification of all irrational thought. Hmm.<br />
be that as it may, i see little evidence in the previous comments against which you have tried to form a rebuttal of the entanglement of cause and effect; indeed in many other articles, that would warrant such an out-of-the-blue and clearly irrational steretype</p>
<p>there is more than a glimmer of resentment that these inferior, less intelligent mortals than yourself have an &#8216;easy&#8217; time of it, as clearly such new-fangled claptrap like &#8220;calculators&#8221; &#8211; *gasp* -have no place in modern education. i would just like to point out that in less priviledged school areas, 30% of the children will come away this summer with no GCSEs whatsoever. What is needed is a more universal standard of good quality education, and less grumbling about the good old days </p>
<p>Oh, and just fyi, Everest has decreased 1.3m in height in the past 34 years <img src='http://liberalconspiracy.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Matt Munro</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-24579</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Munro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-24579</guid>
		<description>&quot;(has Mount Everest become less tall over the last 50 years, or have climbers become better-prepared?)&quot;

Climers have better equipment.  The mountain is still the same size.  Therefore someone with lesser ability can acheive the same result with less effort and ability

Kids today have scientific calculators in exams.  I had log Tables.  Kids today can take text books into English exams.  I had to memorise whole tracts of Shakespeare. Therefore someone with lesser ability than me can acheive the same result as me with less effort/ability

With intensive training, most people can significantly improve their IQ scores, but it doesn&#039;t make them more intelligent, as in their wider academic performance doesn&#039;t improve.  Why do the left always have such trouble untangling empirical cause and effect ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;(has Mount Everest become less tall over the last 50 years, or have climbers become better-prepared?)&#8221;</p>
<p>Climers have better equipment.  The mountain is still the same size.  Therefore someone with lesser ability can acheive the same result with less effort and ability</p>
<p>Kids today have scientific calculators in exams.  I had log Tables.  Kids today can take text books into English exams.  I had to memorise whole tracts of Shakespeare. Therefore someone with lesser ability than me can acheive the same result as me with less effort/ability</p>
<p>With intensive training, most people can significantly improve their IQ scores, but it doesn&#8217;t make them more intelligent, as in their wider academic performance doesn&#8217;t improve.  Why do the left always have such trouble untangling empirical cause and effect ?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Munro</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-24578</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Munro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-24578</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t &quot;dads and doughnuts&quot; contravene the health comissariats target number 474b on the promotion of &quot;unhealthy&quot; food ?

Slightly more serious than information about parents eveneings is the fact that unmarried fathers have no legal rights whatsoever in respect of their children, (and Government via the CSA and the Family Courts has worked hard to keep it that way) and that, again at the behest of the government, the rights of a child to a father in donor IVF programmes no longer needs to be considered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t &#8220;dads and doughnuts&#8221; contravene the health comissariats target number 474b on the promotion of &#8220;unhealthy&#8221; food ?</p>
<p>Slightly more serious than information about parents eveneings is the fact that unmarried fathers have no legal rights whatsoever in respect of their children, (and Government via the CSA and the Family Courts has worked hard to keep it that way) and that, again at the behest of the government, the rights of a child to a father in donor IVF programmes no longer needs to be considered.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike FW</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-24567</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike FW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-24567</guid>
		<description>Actually they should in law inform both parties.

LEAs often get this wrong for example the definition of parent in the 1996 education act is pretty all encompassing and includes biological parents as well as anyone else who has care and control over the child. so a breach of a parental duty in the act can lead to a prosecution against grandparents as though they were parents.

sometimes, actually quite often, LEAs get this wrong and miss names in a prosecution, especially in truancy and section 437 prosecutions. This can lead to them loosing their case even against the parents named as it can be argued to being discriminatory prosecution. In law you are not allowed to chose who you go after in a criminal case, if the defense can show that the law has been unevenly applied the case can fall.

In any event fathers have a right in law, unless the right has been removed by the courts, to information held by the school. Fathers should be informed as are mothers.

if the father looses his parental rights thats a different thing of course.

but remember a father with parental responsibilities can be held liable for prosecution for truancy even if he does not live with the child. but, by not sending him info about the child&#039;s misbehavior they provide him with a defense or at least mitigation especially if he can show that the mother was hiding info from him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually they should in law inform both parties.</p>
<p>LEAs often get this wrong for example the definition of parent in the 1996 education act is pretty all encompassing and includes biological parents as well as anyone else who has care and control over the child. so a breach of a parental duty in the act can lead to a prosecution against grandparents as though they were parents.</p>
<p>sometimes, actually quite often, LEAs get this wrong and miss names in a prosecution, especially in truancy and section 437 prosecutions. This can lead to them loosing their case even against the parents named as it can be argued to being discriminatory prosecution. In law you are not allowed to chose who you go after in a criminal case, if the defense can show that the law has been unevenly applied the case can fall.</p>
<p>In any event fathers have a right in law, unless the right has been removed by the courts, to information held by the school. Fathers should be informed as are mothers.</p>
<p>if the father looses his parental rights thats a different thing of course.</p>
<p>but remember a father with parental responsibilities can be held liable for prosecution for truancy even if he does not live with the child. but, by not sending him info about the child&#8217;s misbehavior they provide him with a defense or at least mitigation especially if he can show that the mother was hiding info from him.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Fayers</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-22583</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Fayers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-22583</guid>
		<description>much wisdom in the previous 33 articles as well as a diversity of views. I think that the education system is but one part of the reallity of marital break up in Britain today. As mentioned one size does not fit all and a case by case aproach will benefit the children of marriages that have failed. This will inevitably mean more work for the Family Courts but Justice will be better served as will the children involved. My own experience is that there seems to be a bias in operation which is inexcusable and predictably fails parents and children.
 I think a system change that would allow for finding of fact, balance of probability, challenging stautory reports, evidence given under oath and allowing for the cross jurisdictional inclusion of evidence would go a long way to improving the system. Improving the outcome for children, parents and thus society as a whole
I would never argue that all midwives, gyneacologists and paediatricians should be women or parents but it is hard to comprehend how a non parent aged 25 and recently graduated has the breadth of knowledge or experience to allow them to make decisions on such matters especially when they are not obliged to be informed of all the facts involved in the particular case in question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>much wisdom in the previous 33 articles as well as a diversity of views. I think that the education system is but one part of the reallity of marital break up in Britain today. As mentioned one size does not fit all and a case by case aproach will benefit the children of marriages that have failed. This will inevitably mean more work for the Family Courts but Justice will be better served as will the children involved. My own experience is that there seems to be a bias in operation which is inexcusable and predictably fails parents and children.<br />
 I think a system change that would allow for finding of fact, balance of probability, challenging stautory reports, evidence given under oath and allowing for the cross jurisdictional inclusion of evidence would go a long way to improving the system. Improving the outcome for children, parents and thus society as a whole<br />
I would never argue that all midwives, gyneacologists and paediatricians should be women or parents but it is hard to comprehend how a non parent aged 25 and recently graduated has the breadth of knowledge or experience to allow them to make decisions on such matters especially when they are not obliged to be informed of all the facts involved in the particular case in question.</p>
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		<title>By: Catherine Brown</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-21280</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-21280</guid>
		<description>Lynne&#039;s comments are wholly welcome. From a policy and legal perspective men are increasingly seen as &quot;secondary care givers&quot;.. This inadvertent sidelining of fathers in the rearing of their children is highly damaging.

Given the demographic changes in family structure, we really need to think how we support and empower both men and women to be fully involved in the raising of their children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynne&#8217;s comments are wholly welcome. From a policy and legal perspective men are increasingly seen as &#8220;secondary care givers&#8221;.. This inadvertent sidelining of fathers in the rearing of their children is highly damaging.</p>
<p>Given the demographic changes in family structure, we really need to think how we support and empower both men and women to be fully involved in the raising of their children.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Kennick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-20953</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Kennick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-20953</guid>
		<description>Sorry Lilliput but &quot;Because I say so&quot; doesn&#039;t work in adult debates, if everyone else in the discussion was five years old you might have a chance of getting it through.

My own experience couldn&#039;t contradict that postulate more so I was asking if there were any links to research that showed this trend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Lilliput but &#8220;Because I say so&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work in adult debates, if everyone else in the discussion was five years old you might have a chance of getting it through.</p>
<p>My own experience couldn&#8217;t contradict that postulate more so I was asking if there were any links to research that showed this trend.</p>
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		<title>By: Lilliput</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-20952</link>
		<dc:creator>Lilliput</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-20952</guid>
		<description>Yes I can. 

It comes from the School of the Bleeding Obvious in the same chapter as &quot; the more you practice the luckier you will get&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes I can. </p>
<p>It comes from the School of the Bleeding Obvious in the same chapter as &#8221; the more you practice the luckier you will get&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Kennick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-20609</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Kennick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-20609</guid>
		<description>&gt;I continue to believe that given it has been shown that a kid’s reading ability, particularly boys, improves beyond measure in correlation to how much reading they do with their dad

Please can you provide citations for that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;I continue to believe that given it has been shown that a kid’s reading ability, particularly boys, improves beyond measure in correlation to how much reading they do with their dad</p>
<p>Please can you provide citations for that?</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17693</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17693</guid>
		<description>John:

The grade boundaries for the AQA Physics GSCE for 2007 were 75% for an A* and 66.7% for an A.

For the GCE physics paper I used as a comparison, in which the question is considerably more rigorous and demanding, the grade boundary for an A ranges from 76% - 80% depending on the year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>The grade boundaries for the AQA Physics GSCE for 2007 were 75% for an A* and 66.7% for an A.</p>
<p>For the GCE physics paper I used as a comparison, in which the question is considerably more rigorous and demanding, the grade boundary for an A ranges from 76% &#8211; 80% depending on the year.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17692</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17692</guid>
		<description>If memory serves (it is out there somewhere), the TDA uses a combination of verbal reasoning, maths and vocabulary. An imperfect standard obviously for A-levels, but the sort of skills that anyone undertaking university study or employment will need. Obviously, you need some general measure in order to compare exams that have different curriculums so whether you think the measure is appropriate will depend on what you think A-levels are actually for (which I don&#039;t think the government knows at the moment, apart from for getting more people, nominally, into university).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If memory serves (it is out there somewhere), the TDA uses a combination of verbal reasoning, maths and vocabulary. An imperfect standard obviously for A-levels, but the sort of skills that anyone undertaking university study or employment will need. Obviously, you need some general measure in order to compare exams that have different curriculums so whether you think the measure is appropriate will depend on what you think A-levels are actually for (which I don&#8217;t think the government knows at the moment, apart from for getting more people, nominally, into university).</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17691</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17691</guid>
		<description>&quot;All it was showing was that the same grades do not represent the same level of developed abilities as they used to&quot;

The paper wasn&#039;t clear, and there isn&#039;t any material easily findable (read: first three pages of searches with reasonably obvious terms) on what the TDA test they use for comparison actually shows.

If, as vaguely implied in the paper, it&#039;s primarily logic/reasoning, then this is exactly what you&#039;d expect from an improvement in standards - kids who are less &#039;naturally&#039; bright are doing better in the exams because they&#039;re taught better.

If, as you seem to be suggesting and the paper also implies in places, it&#039;s a test of subject knowledge, then how the hell do they deal with curriculum changes? (not much use in consistently asking history questions every year on the Vikings, if the A-level syllabus is all about the Nazis...)

&quot;I gave a simple, empirical, demonstration of the decline in knowledge requirements in GCSE physics in this post…&quot;

No, as commenters Simon and Dan on your post demonstrate. I&#039;d add to their comprehensive list of points, that you&#039;d also need have the distribution of marks and associated grade boundaries for each question to demonstrate that one was harder than the other (e.g. if an A at O-level involved getting 50% of the marks for that question while an A at GCSE involved 80%). 

(and the fact that you&#039;ve found a teacher who thinks A-levels are easier than they used to be doesn&#039;t prove a lot. I can throw a metaphorical stick in blogland and find a whole bunch of policemen with daft views about crime, but that doesn&#039;t make them right...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;All it was showing was that the same grades do not represent the same level of developed abilities as they used to&#8221;</p>
<p>The paper wasn&#8217;t clear, and there isn&#8217;t any material easily findable (read: first three pages of searches with reasonably obvious terms) on what the TDA test they use for comparison actually shows.</p>
<p>If, as vaguely implied in the paper, it&#8217;s primarily logic/reasoning, then this is exactly what you&#8217;d expect from an improvement in standards &#8211; kids who are less &#8216;naturally&#8217; bright are doing better in the exams because they&#8217;re taught better.</p>
<p>If, as you seem to be suggesting and the paper also implies in places, it&#8217;s a test of subject knowledge, then how the hell do they deal with curriculum changes? (not much use in consistently asking history questions every year on the Vikings, if the A-level syllabus is all about the Nazis&#8230;)</p>
<p>&#8220;I gave a simple, empirical, demonstration of the decline in knowledge requirements in GCSE physics in this post…&#8221;</p>
<p>No, as commenters Simon and Dan on your post demonstrate. I&#8217;d add to their comprehensive list of points, that you&#8217;d also need have the distribution of marks and associated grade boundaries for each question to demonstrate that one was harder than the other (e.g. if an A at O-level involved getting 50% of the marks for that question while an A at GCSE involved 80%). </p>
<p>(and the fact that you&#8217;ve found a teacher who thinks A-levels are easier than they used to be doesn&#8217;t prove a lot. I can throw a metaphorical stick in blogland and find a whole bunch of policemen with daft views about crime, but that doesn&#8217;t make them right&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17689</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17689</guid>
		<description>I agree, but I think it is more a climate of league tables and a LACK of parental choice. The government treats GCSEs and A-levels almost literally as if they were cans of baked beans coming off a production line (they have a whole cargo cult framework of &quot;productivity&quot; models built into how they judge the education system). The government is also the sole purchaser of education in the state sector (with a tiny, tiny bit of input from parents) which means that it is the productivity model which wins the day rather than whatever parents would actually choose or the judgements they would actually make about a school. To conflate league tables with parent choice is to buy into the Thatcherite doctrine that managerialism somehow equals competition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, but I think it is more a climate of league tables and a LACK of parental choice. The government treats GCSEs and A-levels almost literally as if they were cans of baked beans coming off a production line (they have a whole cargo cult framework of &#8220;productivity&#8221; models built into how they judge the education system). The government is also the sole purchaser of education in the state sector (with a tiny, tiny bit of input from parents) which means that it is the productivity model which wins the day rather than whatever parents would actually choose or the judgements they would actually make about a school. To conflate league tables with parent choice is to buy into the Thatcherite doctrine that managerialism somehow equals competition.</p>
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		<title>By: Planeshift</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17688</link>
		<dc:creator>Planeshift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17688</guid>
		<description>&quot;Which doesn’t matter at all, assuming the purpose of schools and teachers is to teach people how to pass GCSEs and A-levels. But thats the problem, it isn’t!&quot;

In a climate of league tables and parental choice, I can&#039;t think why schools and teachers would teach people how to pass GCSEs and A-levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Which doesn’t matter at all, assuming the purpose of schools and teachers is to teach people how to pass GCSEs and A-levels. But thats the problem, it isn’t!&#8221;</p>
<p>In a climate of league tables and parental choice, I can&#8217;t think why schools and teachers would teach people how to pass GCSEs and A-levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17683</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17683</guid>
		<description>John:

I gave a simple, empirical, demonstration of the decline in knowledge requirements in GCSE physics in this post...

http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2007/12/11/the-key-to-future-global-wellbeing/

You can&#039;t a more straightforward comparison than a juxtaposition of two examination questions on the same topic.

And for the record, When talking to my son&#039;s physics teacher at an open day earlier this year, the teacher freely admitted that to cover the same syllabus I studied at &#039;O&#039; level 25 or so years ago, my son would have to take an AS level in the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>I gave a simple, empirical, demonstration of the decline in knowledge requirements in GCSE physics in this post&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2007/12/11/the-key-to-future-global-wellbeing/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2007/12/11/the-key-to-future-global-wellbeing/</a></p>
<p>You can&#8217;t a more straightforward comparison than a juxtaposition of two examination questions on the same topic.</p>
<p>And for the record, When talking to my son&#8217;s physics teacher at an open day earlier this year, the teacher freely admitted that to cover the same syllabus I studied at &#8216;O&#8217; level 25 or so years ago, my son would have to take an AS level in the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17681</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17681</guid>
		<description>Quite right, John. All it was showing was that the same grades do not represent the same level of developed abilities as they used to. Which doesn&#039;t matter at all, assuming the purpose of schools and teachers is to teach people how to pass GCSEs and A-levels. But thats the problem, it isn&#039;t! 

The researchers who wrote the study are just doing what good academics do, commenting narrowly on what their results are showing. But the results are solid grounds for saying that similar grades at A-level do not represent the same level of developed abilities in students as they used to. And that is why universities are struggling to work out who are the good candidates for their courses, and why employers are struggling to find skilled workers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite right, John. All it was showing was that the same grades do not represent the same level of developed abilities as they used to. Which doesn&#8217;t matter at all, assuming the purpose of schools and teachers is to teach people how to pass GCSEs and A-levels. But thats the problem, it isn&#8217;t! </p>
<p>The researchers who wrote the study are just doing what good academics do, commenting narrowly on what their results are showing. But the results are solid grounds for saying that similar grades at A-level do not represent the same level of developed abilities in students as they used to. And that is why universities are struggling to work out who are the good candidates for their courses, and why employers are struggling to find skilled workers.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17680</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17680</guid>
		<description>Back with a response to you both later re your points, but in the meantime, just this quicklya :


&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jul/15/alevels.schools&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;From the Graun&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back with a response to you both later re your points, but in the meantime, just this quicklya :</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jul/15/alevels.schools" rel="nofollow">From the Graun</a></p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17679</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17679</guid>
		<description>&quot;the important thing is that students are learning less then they used to&quot;

But the paper you cited doesn&#039;t contain any evidence at all that students are learning less than they used to. 

Its authors don&#039;t even believe the evidence is strong enough to conclude that the standards required to get a particular grade at GCSE or A-level have fallen [which, given that students are getting progressively better grades at GCSE and A-level, wouldn&#039;t be evidence that they&#039;re learning less than they used to] - much less that overall educational standards are lower.

(has Mount Everest become less tall over the last 50 years, or have climbers become better-prepared?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the important thing is that students are learning less then they used to&#8221;</p>
<p>But the paper you cited doesn&#8217;t contain any evidence at all that students are learning less than they used to. </p>
<p>Its authors don&#8217;t even believe the evidence is strong enough to conclude that the standards required to get a particular grade at GCSE or A-level have fallen [which, given that students are getting progressively better grades at GCSE and A-level, wouldn't be evidence that they're learning less than they used to] &#8211; much less that overall educational standards are lower.</p>
<p>(has Mount Everest become less tall over the last 50 years, or have climbers become better-prepared?)</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17676</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17676</guid>
		<description>&quot;Well I believe that A-Levels are difficult today.&quot;

Humanite, this sort of area is always open to interpretation but the evidence that A-levels have got easier is damn near as close to rock solid as can be. See: http://www.cemcentre.org/documents/CEM%20Extra/SpecialInterests/Exams/ONS%20report%20on%20changes%20at%20GCSE%20and%20A-level.pdf

It is possible that the &quot;higher grades/not any better students&quot; result isn&#039;t down to the exam questions themselves but the format (repeated for best results, narrower curriculum, prior knowledge of questions coming up) but that is to get rather nuanced about the what the meaning of &quot;easier&quot; is, and the important thing is that students are learning less then they used to, not exactly what grades they are achieving.

The problem is the political establishment simply haven&#039;t woken up to this problem yet. The government itself is very much in denial. Until whatever ideology is keeping politicians from seeing the problem comes crashing down, talking about parent/school interactions is going to be very much a middle-class luxury while ordinary children are being failed consistently by a system which lacks anything resembling a feedback mechanism. This is why it is important to talk about the quality of the education, because if you ignore it, you are actually ignoring one of the few things that schools really could impact on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Well I believe that A-Levels are difficult today.&#8221;</p>
<p>Humanite, this sort of area is always open to interpretation but the evidence that A-levels have got easier is damn near as close to rock solid as can be. See: <a href="http://www.cemcentre.org/documents/CEM%20Extra/SpecialInterests/Exams/ONS%20report%20on%20changes%20at%20GCSE%20and%20A-level.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cemcentre.org/documents/CEM%20Extra/SpecialInterests/Exams/ONS%20report%20on%20changes%20at%20GCSE%20and%20A-level.pdf</a></p>
<p>It is possible that the &#8220;higher grades/not any better students&#8221; result isn&#8217;t down to the exam questions themselves but the format (repeated for best results, narrower curriculum, prior knowledge of questions coming up) but that is to get rather nuanced about the what the meaning of &#8220;easier&#8221; is, and the important thing is that students are learning less then they used to, not exactly what grades they are achieving.</p>
<p>The problem is the political establishment simply haven&#8217;t woken up to this problem yet. The government itself is very much in denial. Until whatever ideology is keeping politicians from seeing the problem comes crashing down, talking about parent/school interactions is going to be very much a middle-class luxury while ordinary children are being failed consistently by a system which lacks anything resembling a feedback mechanism. This is why it is important to talk about the quality of the education, because if you ignore it, you are actually ignoring one of the few things that schools really could impact on.</p>
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		<title>By: Humanite</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17674</link>
		<dc:creator>Humanite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17674</guid>
		<description>Well I believe that A-Levels are difficult today. However, it seems rather pointless to keep arguing the point since we are not going to agree. No, the article is not about the quality of education, it&#039;s about the roles of both families and schools in socialising and educating children.You have still not said anything about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I believe that A-Levels are difficult today. However, it seems rather pointless to keep arguing the point since we are not going to agree. No, the article is not about the quality of education, it&#8217;s about the roles of both families and schools in socialising and educating children.You have still not said anything about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17672</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17672</guid>
		<description>Ramblings?  Thanks.  This was not about sounding off about Labour, but asking the OP to  pause and think about current Government policy, which has a lot to answer for in my opinion.

This is socialisation, rather than education, is it?  It doesn&#039;t sound that way...

&lt;i&gt;I continue to believe that given it has been shown that a kid’s reading ability, particularly boys, improves beyond measure in correlation to how much reading they do with their dad – it’s time for pro-actively engaging fathers more.
I’m sure lots of you reading this (fathers) are engaged and equally involved with your kids – but this is about improving a situation where there is need&lt;/i&gt;

Educational standards are not excellent, they are terrible compared to thirty or even twenty years ago.  Todays A Level papers are not difficult - that is entirely the point I was making.  They are dumbed down beyond belief, and are just one of myriad examples of Labour&#039;s failed education policy (remember &quot;Education, Education, Education?)

If you think choice counters actually getting an education that means something, and that the application of a more limited education balance against rigour, the &quot;ramblings&quot;, as you so generously put it, are entirely your own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ramblings?  Thanks.  This was not about sounding off about Labour, but asking the OP to  pause and think about current Government policy, which has a lot to answer for in my opinion.</p>
<p>This is socialisation, rather than education, is it?  It doesn&#8217;t sound that way&#8230;</p>
<p><i>I continue to believe that given it has been shown that a kid’s reading ability, particularly boys, improves beyond measure in correlation to how much reading they do with their dad – it’s time for pro-actively engaging fathers more.<br />
I’m sure lots of you reading this (fathers) are engaged and equally involved with your kids – but this is about improving a situation where there is need</i></p>
<p>Educational standards are not excellent, they are terrible compared to thirty or even twenty years ago.  Todays A Level papers are not difficult &#8211; that is entirely the point I was making.  They are dumbed down beyond belief, and are just one of myriad examples of Labour&#8217;s failed education policy (remember &#8220;Education, Education, Education?)</p>
<p>If you think choice counters actually getting an education that means something, and that the application of a more limited education balance against rigour, the &#8220;ramblings&#8221;, as you so generously put it, are entirely your own.</p>
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		<title>By: thomas</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17671</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17671</guid>
		<description>Daniel, I&#039;m glad we can get down to some nitty-gritty.

Role responsibility is largely explained upon school entry, the problem arises when the contract between the parties is not fulfilled adequately or where it was inadequate to start with. 

But this is a problem for all sides: some parents reject certain responsibilities, some find it impossible to comply; many schools don&#039;t have adequate funding or facilities to provide sufficient range, bredth or depth of opportunity to every child, while more are faced with the choice between basic standards for all and excellence for the few.

Of course we all want things to be better, but what are you prepared to exchange from your current settlement in order to make it happen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, I&#8217;m glad we can get down to some nitty-gritty.</p>
<p>Role responsibility is largely explained upon school entry, the problem arises when the contract between the parties is not fulfilled adequately or where it was inadequate to start with. </p>
<p>But this is a problem for all sides: some parents reject certain responsibilities, some find it impossible to comply; many schools don&#8217;t have adequate funding or facilities to provide sufficient range, bredth or depth of opportunity to every child, while more are faced with the choice between basic standards for all and excellence for the few.</p>
<p>Of course we all want things to be better, but what are you prepared to exchange from your current settlement in order to make it happen?</p>
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		<title>By: Humanite</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/27/dads-have-been-left-out-in-the-cold/#comment-17669</link>
		<dc:creator>Humanite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=1049#comment-17669</guid>
		<description>Why yes I do actually, I may not have any experience with A-Level Maths but I do have experience with A-Levels and happen to know a lot about the current education system. Now, don&#039;t get me wrong, I&#039;m not saying that the education system is perfect. It has big weaknesses, such as teaching people how to pass the test rather than teaching the actual knowledge. This affectively means that anything that they will not be tested on they will not be taught.

However, educational standards are excellent. There is more choice for students, they have any number of different subjects to choose from; and they are taught more and more how to apply their knowledge. For the record, most people given today&#039;s A-Level papers would fail them. They are very difficult and students are put under a lot of pressure.

But all of that is really besides the point, the article is not about education standards, it&#039;s about socialisation, families and schools. Even if your ramblings were true, they aren&#039;t relevant. If you wish to find space on the internet to sound off about Labour, I doubt you&#039;ll have too much trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why yes I do actually, I may not have any experience with A-Level Maths but I do have experience with A-Levels and happen to know a lot about the current education system. Now, don&#8217;t get me wrong, I&#8217;m not saying that the education system is perfect. It has big weaknesses, such as teaching people how to pass the test rather than teaching the actual knowledge. This affectively means that anything that they will not be tested on they will not be taught.</p>
<p>However, educational standards are excellent. There is more choice for students, they have any number of different subjects to choose from; and they are taught more and more how to apply their knowledge. For the record, most people given today&#8217;s A-Level papers would fail them. They are very difficult and students are put under a lot of pressure.</p>
<p>But all of that is really besides the point, the article is not about education standards, it&#8217;s about socialisation, families and schools. Even if your ramblings were true, they aren&#8217;t relevant. If you wish to find space on the internet to sound off about Labour, I doubt you&#8217;ll have too much trouble.</p>
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