It was centralisation which took that ability away from local communities when their long-tenured and trusted bobbies were taken away and in doing so removed any actual on-the-spot accountability.

Back in the day (until the mid-eighties) my local primary school recieved a weekly assembly from our Mr Walters, and he knew to be waiting across from the local pub around chucking out time to keep an eye on the regulars – communication, data analysis and rapid response!

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_22.pdf

From the conclusion:

“On QOL [quality-of-life] enforcement, all
four groups [Asians, Blacks, Hispanics,
Whites] equally approved of the “broken
windows” notion of urban decay (4.0 on a
1–5 scale), and continued to score above 3
on a 1–5 scale endorsing NYPD QOL enforcement.

Moreover, it is not just that all ethnic groups
broadly support quality of life enforcement,
Hispanics, African-Americans, and Asians,
actually support it more strongly than do
Whites.
. . . When analyzed by ethic group, all four
groups strongly supported QOL enforcement.
On the 0–20 scale, Whites’ level of
support (14.6) for QOL enforcement was actually
exceeded by people of color—Hispanics
(15.2), Blacks (15.3), and Asians
(15.5). The likely reason for this is that . . .
problems are more troublesome in non-
White neighborhoods.”

The “borken windows” approach is of course shorthand for a more complex series of measures, the most powerful of which appears to be timely data analysis and rapid response to emerging problems combined with local commander accountability for local crime rates.

“At that time, the extraordinary success of New York’s crimefighters was a new story, and not one that people in this country knew anything about. Phrases such as “zero-tolerance policing” and “broken windows theory” – describing New York’s crackdown on even minor crime – were unknown in this country outside, well, little think-tanks. ”

(Though according to john b his use of those phrases apparently proves he has no idea what he is talking about!)

The “right” has (kind of) won the argument, but governments have not followed through…now all we need are the police numbers and the prison places.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article4380637.ece

Unlike Londoners, New Yorkers (and the New York press) have no doubt whatsoever that crime in their city has fallen substantially over the past 10-15 years. No doubt at all.

I guess that’s a problem of the medium and how it lacks intonation, so maybe we are all at fault for being stuck within the limitations of the blog, which infers that politicians are equally all at fault for the way they conduct debate in public through various media…

These are only two facets of a multi-pronged approach, albeit the two most politicised facets reflecting their position at the coalface of the fight against crime.

I didn’t say more policemen was the only factor – I’m pretty certain I made it clear that “it had something to do with it”. Try re-reading what I wrote and don’t assume so much about what people aren’t aware of.

Yes, but still it’s only a part of the bigger picture, and like I said above, crime complaints is not the same thing as crime, therefore there is only a correlation between any statistics we might quote.

Actual police numbers also reflect crime perceptions much more closely than they do levels of crime – primarily because they are responsive.

So, you are entirely correct in stating the impression one might take correpsonds with one starting position on the matter, be it environmentally or philosophically, where one asks and then answers ‘what is the natural rate?’

In contrast it is also entirely correct to question what effective measures can be used and how their effect is different in different circumstances.

You can hardly walk a step in NYC without seeing a policman – they are everywhere – any time of the day or night.
The contrast in that regard with London is really striking.

I don’t feel safer in NYC, as I live in a very safe part of zone one in London, but the relative change has been extraordinary.

NYC has been doing and continues to do something very right.

give you the stats

reported not survey basis

re: influence of more police officers and zero tolerance on crime figures.

These are only two facets of a multi-pronged approach, albeit the two most politicised facets reflecting their position at the coalface of the fight against crime.

There are a huge number of factors which play into criminality which reflect different historical circumstances and the way attitudes have changed as the political sphere has evolved. We could, for example, talk about the different legacies of racism and how segregation has lead to different policing policies in different parts of town, as a response to different spatial crime profiles. We could talk about how science has influenced criminal opportunity by the development of a raft of new countermeasures and prevention measures, such as to make car theft more difficult and the ubiquitous presence of private ‘security’ forces. We could talk about how changes in civic planning and architecture influences what happens where…

Frankly if you want to repeat your liberal-libertarian debate by proxy, why not try to account for non-immediate factors too, unless, of course, that might challenge both your narrow perspectives of how ideology affects the debate.

In the absence of an impartial report providing context on the figures in the style of the ones published in England and Wales, It’s just a meaningless headline figure. And yes, there probably is such a report; I haven’t read it; please post a link and a précis if you have…

If anyone’s ideological blinkers means they don’t want to consider solutions which have cut crime by 77% in a comporable city well that’s up to them.

Yes NYC has a higher murder rate although all other violent crimes are lower.
But the main point is the scale of the decline, across the board, not the comparative levels.

I am just about prepared to believe that violent crime has fallen from 1995.
But it certainly is higher than 1990.
While NYC is down 77% from 1990.

This primarily reflects the fact that they’re lying bastards.

heh.

Sorry I was wrong.

Since 1990 NYC crime is down 77%!

Crime in London is higher.

They are obviously doing something right.

I am sure we argued about this earlier this year. You attributed it to zero tolerance. I looked at the evidence and concluded it might have something to do with New York’s higher number of police officers per capita. You didn’t respond.

This primarily reflects the fact that they’re lying bastards.

Bringing up the New York example is a bit like saying ‘hey, this alcoholic’s cut down from 10 bottles of meths a day to just 2, he’s just the chap to send into schools to warn them of the perils of one too many Bacardi Breezers’. Different country, different rules – there’s a limit to what you can learn from overseas examples. As I’ve said elsewhere, Baghdad is safer than it was, but I’m not sure London would benefit from the Army supplying and paying the gangs and getting them to police their own walled-off enclaves, while occasionally blasting the hell out of any that steps out of line.

Since 1990 NYC crime is down 77%!

Crime in London is higher.

They are obviously doing something right.

If you were reluctant (up to last autumn, obviously) to let Mr Broon take credit for 10 years of economic growth, you should be equally reluctant to let Mr Guiliani take credit for 10 years of favourable demographic trends…

Though such conservative methods don’t do much to reduce the actual rate of crimes committed, I’m convinced the comedian @15 would be more than happy to enlighten us all by providing a fully accurate overview of criminality in the UK for every decade going back to the civil war to prove it.

No? Well what’s he/she (sounds like a he) doing going round like an idiot making general prescriptions based on ideology then?

Of course murder was non-existent when 200+ people a year were being hung at Tyburn every year. Of course before Jack the Ripper came to the eastend the peelers had every borough in their pocket and every misdemeanour was provided swift execution of justice to the betterment of all. Of course it’s this generation of under 12s are the first who’ve begun organising themselves into gangs because of differential representation in the House of Commons since they were born. So let’s bring back capital punishment, reduce the policeforce by 90% and employ semi-literate constables who wouldn’t be able to waste their time filling in endless paperwork accounting for their use of sanctioned force even if it was really needed.

Yay – that’ll keep the dirty mob in their place; that’ll answer all complaints against those upstanding boys in blue, who we should all be treated like royalty – won’t it? At least then those hard working sons of baronets and earls wouldn’t have to worry about the threat to their income that might be the result of indecision over how long to keep prisoners before they are executed – won’t it?

Err, no, it won’t.

If conservatives really want to live in a conservative country then they should move to Saudi Arabia and try it out for a while.