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	<title>Comments on: Defending the Fifth Estate</title>
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	<description>creating a new liberal-left force</description>
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		<title>By: The Dave Walker Reposts &#171; UKCBD: The Christian Bookshops Blog</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-17966</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dave Walker Reposts &#171; UKCBD: The Christian Bookshops Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Aug 2008 17:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-17966</guid>
		<description>[...] A final article by Unity entitled Defending the Fifth Estate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A final article by Unity entitled Defending the Fifth Estate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Walker Daily Wed 30 July &#124; The Wardman Wire</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-17777</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Walker Daily Wed 30 July &#124; The Wardman Wire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-17777</guid>
		<description>[...] they are a national disgrace - courtesy of Unity who posted it as a single (looooonnnggg) article here . I like my Libel Law in bite sized [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] they are a national disgrace &#8211; courtesy of Unity who posted it as a single (looooonnnggg) article here . I like my Libel Law in bite sized [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dearieme</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16864</link>
		<dc:creator>dearieme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16864</guid>
		<description>You really mustn&#039;t say Britain and UK when you are referring to English law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You really mustn&#8217;t say Britain and UK when you are referring to English law.</p>
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		<title>By: ukliberty</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16819</link>
		<dc:creator>ukliberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16819</guid>
		<description>Firstly, I think suggestion number 2 is already the case. 

I think &quot;libel tourism&quot; (certainly &quot;libel terrorism&quot;) is something of a misnomer - English courts have jurisdiction if the libel in question ends up in this jurisdiction, which it did in Ehrenfeld&#039;s case, as 23 books were delivered internationally to recipients here, and people accessing the article on the ABC News website from here.

Apparently Ehrenfeld chose not to defend herself because (a) it was prohibitively expensive and (b) she didn&#039;t see why she should have to defend herself since her book was not published within this jurisdiction.  Well, I have every sympathy with (a) but not (b), because the law must be taken as we find it, not as we would wish it to be.  Fair enough if her lawyers said, &quot;well they aren&#039;t likely to attempt to enforce a default judgement anyway&quot;... not much point in attending an English court.  But otherwise it looks a bit like petulance - after all, there wasn&#039;t an issue of proving jurisdiction.

It&#039;s worth reading &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2005/1156.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bin Mahfouz &amp; Ors v Ehrenfeld &amp; Anor&lt;/a&gt;, the judgement (also &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2004/168.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;King v Lewis &amp; Ors&lt;/a&gt;), not least because it points out that in a new preface to a subsequent edition of her book, Ehrenfeld wrote,&lt;blockquote&gt;On October 19, 2004, Khalid Bin Mahfouz commenced legal proceedings against me for libel in a British court. Despite the enormous cost involved, I have decided to take it upon myself to challenge Khalid Bin Mahfouz and provide the UK court with evidence that he, the Muwafaq Foundation, and the NCB have in fact supported Al Qaeda and HAMAS.&lt;/blockquote&gt;However, she did not attend court, let alone provide it with evidence.  I&#039;m not sure we have the whole story here (if indeed we ever do).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly, I think suggestion number 2 is already the case. </p>
<p>I think &#8220;libel tourism&#8221; (certainly &#8220;libel terrorism&#8221;) is something of a misnomer &#8211; English courts have jurisdiction if the libel in question ends up in this jurisdiction, which it did in Ehrenfeld&#8217;s case, as 23 books were delivered internationally to recipients here, and people accessing the article on the ABC News website from here.</p>
<p>Apparently Ehrenfeld chose not to defend herself because (a) it was prohibitively expensive and (b) she didn&#8217;t see why she should have to defend herself since her book was not published within this jurisdiction.  Well, I have every sympathy with (a) but not (b), because the law must be taken as we find it, not as we would wish it to be.  Fair enough if her lawyers said, &#8220;well they aren&#8217;t likely to attempt to enforce a default judgement anyway&#8221;&#8230; not much point in attending an English court.  But otherwise it looks a bit like petulance &#8211; after all, there wasn&#8217;t an issue of proving jurisdiction.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth reading <a href="http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2005/1156.html" rel="nofollow">Bin Mahfouz &amp; Ors v Ehrenfeld &amp; Anor</a>, the judgement (also <a href="http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2004/168.html" rel="nofollow">King v Lewis &amp; Ors</a>), not least because it points out that in a new preface to a subsequent edition of her book, Ehrenfeld wrote,<br />
<blockquote>On October 19, 2004, Khalid Bin Mahfouz commenced legal proceedings against me for libel in a British court. Despite the enormous cost involved, I have decided to take it upon myself to challenge Khalid Bin Mahfouz and provide the UK court with evidence that he, the Muwafaq Foundation, and the NCB have in fact supported Al Qaeda and HAMAS.</p></blockquote>
<p>However, she did not attend court, let alone provide it with evidence.  I&#8217;m not sure we have the whole story here (if indeed we ever do).</p>
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		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16790</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16790</guid>
		<description>Unity @ 8,

Phew!

Still, the principle of keeping lawyers out of our space  is important, is it not? And ambulance chasers in particular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unity @ 8,</p>
<p>Phew!</p>
<p>Still, the principle of keeping lawyers out of our space  is important, is it not? And ambulance chasers in particular.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Griffin</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16781</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16781</guid>
		<description>Bensix,

It was in an email response by Obama to a supporter of the Pat Finucane Centre. There is an extract on their website.
http://www.patfinucanecentre.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bensix,</p>
<p>It was in an email response by Obama to a supporter of the Pat Finucane Centre. There is an extract on their website.<br />
<a href="http://www.patfinucanecentre.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.patfinucanecentre.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: BenSix</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16779</link>
		<dc:creator>BenSix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16779</guid>
		<description>Excellent piece, Unity.

Tom,

&quot;I wonder when he will be getting his letter from Schillings?&quot;

Hah!

Do you have a link?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent piece, Unity.</p>
<p>Tom,</p>
<p>&#8220;I wonder when he will be getting his letter from Schillings?&#8221;</p>
<p>Hah!</p>
<p>Do you have a link?</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16777</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16777</guid>
		<description>Sally:

Regardless of any ulterior motives Lieberman might be construed as having, his bill is fully consistent with long-standing US practice vis-a-vis the legal primacy of their Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Try reading any of the clarifications, reservations and derogations that the US submit, as a matter of course, when signing up to UN treaties and you&#039;ll see that these all assert that the US constitution take precedence and that any treaty obligations to which the US agrees will be construed and interpreted in line with their Constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sally:</p>
<p>Regardless of any ulterior motives Lieberman might be construed as having, his bill is fully consistent with long-standing US practice vis-a-vis the legal primacy of their Constitution and Bill of Rights.</p>
<p>Try reading any of the clarifications, reservations and derogations that the US submit, as a matter of course, when signing up to UN treaties and you&#8217;ll see that these all assert that the US constitution take precedence and that any treaty obligations to which the US agrees will be construed and interpreted in line with their Constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Griffin</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16776</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16776</guid>
		<description>&quot;where the proof necessary to demonstrate the truth of an allegation can all to easily vanish in the gaping maw of a heavy duty shredder.&quot;

I still have no sympathy for those that whistleblow and &quot;investigate&quot; without shoring up the facts before publishing them. Since when did common sense become optional?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;where the proof necessary to demonstrate the truth of an allegation can all to easily vanish in the gaping maw of a heavy duty shredder.&#8221;</p>
<p>I still have no sympathy for those that whistleblow and &#8220;investigate&#8221; without shoring up the facts before publishing them. Since when did common sense become optional?</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16775</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16775</guid>
		<description>Rest easy, Douglas -  gratuitous insults and abuse are not generally considered to be defamatory.

Calling someone a cunt is, first and foremost, a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact, and is, therefore, not actionable because an opinion is not falsifiable. Calling someone a cunt, in addition, does not harm their reputation and is, therefore, prima facie not libellous, although if you impute an action on the part of the target in the course of making an insult that may be actionable.

&#039;Cunt&#039; is fine on its own - &#039;lying cunt&#039; could get you sued unless, under the current law, you can demonstrate that the individual towards whom the insult is directed is actually a liar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rest easy, Douglas &#8211;  gratuitous insults and abuse are not generally considered to be defamatory.</p>
<p>Calling someone a cunt is, first and foremost, a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact, and is, therefore, not actionable because an opinion is not falsifiable. Calling someone a cunt, in addition, does not harm their reputation and is, therefore, prima facie not libellous, although if you impute an action on the part of the target in the course of making an insult that may be actionable.</p>
<p>&#8216;Cunt&#8217; is fine on its own &#8211; &#8216;lying cunt&#8217; could get you sued unless, under the current law, you can demonstrate that the individual towards whom the insult is directed is actually a liar.</p>
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		<title>By: Unity</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16772</link>
		<dc:creator>Unity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16772</guid>
		<description>Lee:

As the old saying goes, hard case make bad law and the example of someone making a false allegation of paedophilia is just such an example - remember the test in civil cases is that of a balance of probability, so someone making such a claim is still going to have to provide evidence to back up their position under cross-examination unless the plaintiff turns out to have an undisclosed prior for kiddie-fiddling.

The problem with the existing presumption in libel case is that most effects investigative journalism/whistle-blowing, where the proof necessary to demonstrate the truth of an allegation can all to easily vanish in the gaping maw of a heavy duty shredder. Cases can, therefore, be decided not on the truth but on the ability of a plaintiff to conceal evidence of the truth.

So far as libel cases are concerned, my preference would be that cases start without any presumption, one way or another, forcing both sides to present evidence to support their position if the case rests on the question of the truth or otherwise of an allegation. Juries should also have the option of a verdict akin to the Not Proven verdict in Scottish law, allowing them to hand down a verdict which says, in essence, that the cannot make a determination either way with sufficient confidence to enter a verdict for one of the parties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee:</p>
<p>As the old saying goes, hard case make bad law and the example of someone making a false allegation of paedophilia is just such an example &#8211; remember the test in civil cases is that of a balance of probability, so someone making such a claim is still going to have to provide evidence to back up their position under cross-examination unless the plaintiff turns out to have an undisclosed prior for kiddie-fiddling.</p>
<p>The problem with the existing presumption in libel case is that most effects investigative journalism/whistle-blowing, where the proof necessary to demonstrate the truth of an allegation can all to easily vanish in the gaping maw of a heavy duty shredder. Cases can, therefore, be decided not on the truth but on the ability of a plaintiff to conceal evidence of the truth.</p>
<p>So far as libel cases are concerned, my preference would be that cases start without any presumption, one way or another, forcing both sides to present evidence to support their position if the case rests on the question of the truth or otherwise of an allegation. Juries should also have the option of a verdict akin to the Not Proven verdict in Scottish law, allowing them to hand down a verdict which says, in essence, that the cannot make a determination either way with sufficient confidence to enter a verdict for one of the parties.</p>
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		<title>By: douglas clark</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16770</link>
		<dc:creator>douglas clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16770</guid>
		<description>Unity,

I am all for the anarchy of web sites with principles, such as this one. Web sites without principle, I am not so sure about.

What I desperately do not want to see are folk like this:

&quot;Offended by what you saw on an internet web site?

 Call us

 Mr Smith was called a &#039;complete and utter cunt&#039;. 

&quot;Thanks to our intervention Mr Smith now has a cheque for 7,000 pounds. Call us on 0898....&quot;

If you&#039;ve ever seen Jean Paul Satre&#039;s &#039;Hell&#039;  which is afternoon TV, there are evil folk working to take us there. They are called lawyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unity,</p>
<p>I am all for the anarchy of web sites with principles, such as this one. Web sites without principle, I am not so sure about.</p>
<p>What I desperately do not want to see are folk like this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Offended by what you saw on an internet web site?</p>
<p> Call us</p>
<p> Mr Smith was called a &#8216;complete and utter cunt&#8217;. </p>
<p>&#8220;Thanks to our intervention Mr Smith now has a cheque for 7,000 pounds. Call us on 0898&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve ever seen Jean Paul Satre&#8217;s &#8216;Hell&#8217;  which is afternoon TV, there are evil folk working to take us there. They are called lawyers.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Griffin</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16768</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16768</guid>
		<description>Barack Obama said two years ago that &quot;the CEO of Aegis Defense Services Tim Spicer has been implicated in a variety of human rights abuses around the globe.  Given his history, I agree that the United States should consider rescinding its contract with his company.&quot;

I wonder when he will be getting his letter from Schillings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barack Obama said two years ago that &#8220;the CEO of Aegis Defense Services Tim Spicer has been implicated in a variety of human rights abuses around the globe.  Given his history, I agree that the United States should consider rescinding its contract with his company.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder when he will be getting his letter from Schillings?</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Griffin</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16765</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16765</guid>
		<description>Dan: The point 6 is carefully worded, it always is. It claims the &quot;defendant&quot;, i.e. someone who has said something about someone, is assumed guilty. Of course the flip side is that it ensures that the person being accused of something by the &quot;defendant&quot; keeps their presumption of innocence.

It&#039;s obviously hard to balance, and there are issues with how much legal proceedings cost, but I can&#039;t find myself feeling sorry that people who make claims about other people have to actually prove that it is the case. As was shown as a perfect example in another thread, if someone accuses you of being a paedophile who sexually molests youngsters why is it that you should have to prove that what is said isn&#039;t true? How can you prove what has been said isn&#039;t true? The practicalities of Libel mean that it is much easier to tell someone &quot;don&#039;t say something about someone unless you can back it up&quot; rather than &quot;Hey everyone, take video diaries, witness statements and any other notes for all of your life just in case someone calls you something you aren&#039;t&quot;

Excuse me while I cry a river for those too inept to back up what they say, and also at the irony of those like Unity believing that this aspect of Libel law is negative when so many &quot;Libel&quot; proceedings against bloggers have been thwarted at the earliest stage simply by showing that the &quot;defendant&quot; doesn&#039;t have any proof of what they&#039;re saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan: The point 6 is carefully worded, it always is. It claims the &#8220;defendant&#8221;, i.e. someone who has said something about someone, is assumed guilty. Of course the flip side is that it ensures that the person being accused of something by the &#8220;defendant&#8221; keeps their presumption of innocence.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s obviously hard to balance, and there are issues with how much legal proceedings cost, but I can&#8217;t find myself feeling sorry that people who make claims about other people have to actually prove that it is the case. As was shown as a perfect example in another thread, if someone accuses you of being a paedophile who sexually molests youngsters why is it that you should have to prove that what is said isn&#8217;t true? How can you prove what has been said isn&#8217;t true? The practicalities of Libel mean that it is much easier to tell someone &#8220;don&#8217;t say something about someone unless you can back it up&#8221; rather than &#8220;Hey everyone, take video diaries, witness statements and any other notes for all of your life just in case someone calls you something you aren&#8217;t&#8221;</p>
<p>Excuse me while I cry a river for those too inept to back up what they say, and also at the irony of those like Unity believing that this aspect of Libel law is negative when so many &#8220;Libel&#8221; proceedings against bloggers have been thwarted at the earliest stage simply by showing that the &#8220;defendant&#8221; doesn&#8217;t have any proof of what they&#8217;re saying.</p>
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		<title>By: sally</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16763</link>
		<dc:creator>sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16763</guid>
		<description>I would be very, very suspicious of anything Senator Joe Lieberman is in involved in. I suspect that his regular appearances on Fox news and the other corporate News networks would tell you who his real backers are.

As for American free speech, ask Mr Lieberman if he agrees with George W Bush and his free speech zones?……… that were set up to restrict any free speech in the ear shot of the President.

This is all about Big Corporates being able to smear Liberals, and not have to worry about Libel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be very, very suspicious of anything Senator Joe Lieberman is in involved in. I suspect that his regular appearances on Fox news and the other corporate News networks would tell you who his real backers are.</p>
<p>As for American free speech, ask Mr Lieberman if he agrees with George W Bush and his free speech zones?……… that were set up to restrict any free speech in the ear shot of the President.</p>
<p>This is all about Big Corporates being able to smear Liberals, and not have to worry about Libel.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16761</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16761</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I agree entirely with everything apart from point 6, by which I&#039;m not entirely convinced.  If someone publishes something that is true but disputed by a libel action as defamatory then they ought to be able - should they pursue the defence of it being true, which they do not have to do - to prove that it is true.  I think the threat of perjury and the need to demontrate that the statement is defamatory should be enough to prevent this being abused by the plaintiff.  Given that cases are settled on the balance of probabilities anyway, I&#039;m not sure the distinction isn&#039;t more subtle than accurate.

I am, of course, open-minded on this.  I&#039;m not really entirely satisfied by my own views, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I agree entirely with everything apart from point 6, by which I&#8217;m not entirely convinced.  If someone publishes something that is true but disputed by a libel action as defamatory then they ought to be able &#8211; should they pursue the defence of it being true, which they do not have to do &#8211; to prove that it is true.  I think the threat of perjury and the need to demontrate that the statement is defamatory should be enough to prevent this being abused by the plaintiff.  Given that cases are settled on the balance of probabilities anyway, I&#8217;m not sure the distinction isn&#8217;t more subtle than accurate.</p>
<p>I am, of course, open-minded on this.  I&#8217;m not really entirely satisfied by my own views, either.</p>
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		<title>By: thomas</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/07/15/defending-the-fifth-estate/#comment-16758</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/?p=995#comment-16758</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure many lawyers could offer you an opinion, for a fee, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure many lawyers could offer you an opinion, for a fee, of course.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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