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	<title>Comments on: Made in Britain: arms manufacturers</title>
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		<title>By: Mund</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13672</link>
		<dc:creator>Mund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13672</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t find that argument convincing, would you elaborate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t find that argument convincing, would you elaborate.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13664</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13664</guid>
		<description>@aaron: plenty of people in the defense industry are ethically motivated. &#039;My country right or wrong&#039; may be a crappy ethical code, but that doesn&#039;t stop it being ethical. Yes, many other people in the industry are motivated by money, or by love of the technology itself, or simple &#039;boys and their toys&#039; glee. But those are precisely the divides that make campaigning more interesting than us vs. them

@mund: well, the &#039;they would just be bought from somewhere else&#039; argument applies to anything (drugs, slaves,...). In fact it applies less to arms, becase arms sales are driven by
(a) massive high-level purchases, driven by politics and corruption
(b) the need to be as well-armed as your neighbours.

So: BAE &amp;c bribe and cajole countries into buying huge weapons systems, often much larger than they originally planned.

The history of this kind of thing is pretty well-documented - you can look at Europe at the end of the 19th century, or the middle east over the past ~50 years, and it&#039;s clear that weapons manufacturers have been expanding their markets, not just meeting existing demand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@aaron: plenty of people in the defense industry are ethically motivated. &#8216;My country right or wrong&#8217; may be a crappy ethical code, but that doesn&#8217;t stop it being ethical. Yes, many other people in the industry are motivated by money, or by love of the technology itself, or simple &#8216;boys and their toys&#8217; glee. But those are precisely the divides that make campaigning more interesting than us vs. them</p>
<p>@mund: well, the &#8216;they would just be bought from somewhere else&#8217; argument applies to anything (drugs, slaves,&#8230;). In fact it applies less to arms, becase arms sales are driven by<br />
(a) massive high-level purchases, driven by politics and corruption<br />
(b) the need to be as well-armed as your neighbours.</p>
<p>So: BAE &amp;c bribe and cajole countries into buying huge weapons systems, often much larger than they originally planned.</p>
<p>The history of this kind of thing is pretty well-documented &#8211; you can look at Europe at the end of the 19th century, or the middle east over the past ~50 years, and it&#8217;s clear that weapons manufacturers have been expanding their markets, not just meeting existing demand.</p>
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		<title>By: Planeshift</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13643</link>
		<dc:creator>Planeshift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13643</guid>
		<description>&quot;And at what price innocent human lives, ended with UK manufactured weapons?&quot;

That&#039;s called an externality. Which means we can carry on selling the guns provided we have a pigou tax no higher than the value of the damage caused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And at what price innocent human lives, ended with UK manufactured weapons?&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s called an externality. Which means we can carry on selling the guns provided we have a pigou tax no higher than the value of the damage caused.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Heath</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13642</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Heath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13642</guid>
		<description>Ok, fair enough...

But,

&lt;em&gt;In employment terms, that puts it roughly on a par with kebab shops. Moreover, the skills of these workers are directly transferable to socially useful applications, and could be better used elsewhere.&lt;/em&gt;

Let&#039;s be honest, if you&#039;re employed by the defence industry, you are probably not motivated by ethics, so why wouldn&#039;t you follow the money to America, Israel, or Germany?

Also, I&#039;d quite happily put down £900bn in subsides, if I thought it would generate £10bn in sales... (though surely such a profitable business shouldn&#039;t rely on hand-outs...)

But, on the whole, I agree that we shouldn&#039;t be indulging in such insidious business. Why is it that Britain cannot use such entrepreneurial spirit elsewhere? Say in new energy technologies or in non-fossil based transport? If you were to offset these technologies against energy imports, I&#039;m sure they could be just as profitable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, fair enough&#8230;</p>
<p>But,</p>
<p><em>In employment terms, that puts it roughly on a par with kebab shops. Moreover, the skills of these workers are directly transferable to socially useful applications, and could be better used elsewhere.</em></p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be honest, if you&#8217;re employed by the defence industry, you are probably not motivated by ethics, so why wouldn&#8217;t you follow the money to America, Israel, or Germany?</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;d quite happily put down £900bn in subsides, if I thought it would generate £10bn in sales&#8230; (though surely such a profitable business shouldn&#8217;t rely on hand-outs&#8230;)</p>
<p>But, on the whole, I agree that we shouldn&#8217;t be indulging in such insidious business. Why is it that Britain cannot use such entrepreneurial spirit elsewhere? Say in new energy technologies or in non-fossil based transport? If you were to offset these technologies against energy imports, I&#8217;m sure they could be just as profitable.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Mc</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13640</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Mc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13640</guid>
		<description>4.  comment by
     Chris Gilmour

£10billion from a 60,000 workforce, or £166,000 per head, suggests it contributes more to the UK economy than kebab shops.

And at what price innocent human lives, ended with UK manufactured weapons?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4.  comment by<br />
     Chris Gilmour</p>
<p>£10billion from a 60,000 workforce, or £166,000 per head, suggests it contributes more to the UK economy than kebab shops.</p>
<p>And at what price innocent human lives, ended with UK manufactured weapons?</p>
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		<title>By: Leon</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13613</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13613</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;arms manufacturers picked up state subsidies of about £990m, enough to build ten hospitals.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Will the Tax Payers Alliance be looking into this use of tax money I wonder...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>arms manufacturers picked up state subsidies of about £990m, enough to build ten hospitals.</p></blockquote>
<p>Will the Tax Payers Alliance be looking into this use of tax money I wonder&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Gilmour</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13606</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Gilmour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13606</guid>
		<description>£10billion from a 60,000 workforce, or £166,000 per head, suggests it contributes more to the UK economy  than kebab shops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>£10billion from a 60,000 workforce, or £166,000 per head, suggests it contributes more to the UK economy  than kebab shops.</p>
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		<title>By: Mund</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13604</link>
		<dc:creator>Mund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13604</guid>
		<description>The argument I&#039;ve come across is that these would then just be made somewhere else an we wouldn&#039;t have the money coming in. How do I answer this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The argument I&#8217;ve come across is that these would then just be made somewhere else an we wouldn&#8217;t have the money coming in. How do I answer this?</p>
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		<title>By: Synergy6</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13602</link>
		<dc:creator>Synergy6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13602</guid>
		<description>I suppose if we go to war with China, we could just ask very nicely if they&#039;d be a good sport and keep supplying us with the latest weaponry. Oh, wait...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose if we go to war with China, we could just ask very nicely if they&#8217;d be a good sport and keep supplying us with the latest weaponry. Oh, wait&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jennie Rigg</title>
		<link>http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13601</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennie Rigg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/06/19/made-in-britain-arms-manufacturers/#comment-13601</guid>
		<description>God that&#039;s depressing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God that&#8217;s depressing.</p>
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