> Hey Colquitto—I made NO references to anything you said.

Sorry, I just assumed a post immediately following mine, addressing the same area of the subject as mine, and containing a near-quote from mine, was intended as a reply to mine. Was that so unreasonable? And what’s with the “Colquitto” spelling? If it’s meant to be an insult I don’t get it.

Everything in your second post AFTER the above sentence, I absolutely agree with, and more power to you.

and i dont care! i would not care if the entire world exploded! I wouldnt care if you fell off a building!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

?WHATEVER?

I hope for your happiness that you are not serious. Stick around and discover that there are plenty of people that wouldnt treat you the way you describe.

And yes, I see no reason that some females cant be as good or better than her male colleagues at ANYTHING.

Since physical great strength is no longer needed or required as a matter of legislation in most roles thesedays, anyone should considered for any role as long they have the skills knowledge and ambition.

But how do you feel about clothes holly?

WELL I’VE HAD IT! ~~~ im going to commit suicide and let me tell you by golly those rates for male vs female arent equal either
and could someone email me and tell me why i should wear pads or tampons please because i really dont see the point.
hollyfly13@gmail.com

What does matter is that certain kinds of clothing is considered taboo for men.

No kind of clothing, accessory, or makeup should be restricted on the basis of assigned sex at birth, or on gender identity.

It is a fact that in most societies in the world today, women are NOT subject to those retriictions.

Yes, there are trousers designed exclusively with a females shape in mind. I have no problem with that.

I am a slim male, and am fortunate that I am able to wear a large selection of womens clothing.

However, certain styles of dresses, are shorter in the torso, than is comfortable for me, and also does not give the appearance I would like to achieve.

A woman wouldnt wear a dress that did not fit her properly, so why should a man?

If we all wear oversized or baggy clothes, than fit is not an issue.

But take a tight dress or very fitted skirt for example.

A tight skirt or dress, reveals the bulge of ones penis and testicles, unless one is able to tuck it all away between ones legs. I prefer not to.

So SOME types of dresses and skirts would be best designed exclusively for men.

Many women if they choose to, can buy mens jeans for example and wear them just as they are.

But women generally are far more concious of fit. Hence the industry caters for women by designing for womens shapes.

All that I would ask is that the clothing be designed for mens shape.

Take blouses for example, where if I but a size that fits across my shoulders and chest, it is not a good fit elsewhere and often the sleeves and body are too short.

Certain styles of dresses are too big across my narrow hips, whilst fitting me in the chest.

So in that strict sense one can argue that there are clothes for men and clothes for women and thats ok.

Go into any levis store, and what do you see?

Mens levis and womens levis. Mens 501′s and womens 501′s.

I want to go into a shop and see Mens dresses skirts etc, and womens dresses and skirts etc.

Some would be unifit and some specifically male fit and female fit.

Just as you get large and petite sizes for women, so you could have diferent shapes whilst preserving the style.

Perfume is for both, jewellery is for both makeup id for both, with perhaps the difference being in the chemicals used to suit male skin types.

Also some lingerie needs to be designed with the shape of the male in mind. I love fronch knickers, but as we all know there is no support for a male. Of course that support is not needed for a female. So we need French knickers for men and french knickers for women.

Everything I have read here and elswhere, has convinced me completely that the answer to the question at the top of this discussion of “Why don’t men wear skirts?” can be answered as follows.

There is no JUSTIFIABLE reason why Men dont wear skirts.

But there are reasons. They are, outdated thinking, predjudice, misunderstanding, fear, embarassment, and I no doubt many others.

So perhaps the question we should all ask ourselves is how do we change it?

Individuals have little impact, perhaps we need a mans movement as voiciferous as the womens was in the 60′s when they burned their bras to campaign for freedoms long denied to them by men.

However, I dont believe that it is only women that are the barrier to mens clothing freedom. Many men are equally or more opposed to men in skirts. We have to tackle their thinking too.

I for one would like to see a unisex shirt/dress peice of clothing be created – oh wait isn’t it called a Kurta?

Main point I want to make about kilts—of any type, traditional or modified modern, is that someone wants us to be stuck with something than can be termed a kilt. NO, I want a skirt. What the Greeks wear is a skirt. Kilts I’m weary hearing about. However, had they been pleated across the front also, my view would be far more positive. These types tell me the flat front, plus pinning and buckling to the right, is what makes it “male.” Come on, the location of a pleat has no correlation to any specific sexual anatomy.

I agree that any type of kilt IS the “thin edge of the wedge,” but the wedge is already “IN” so to speak, and frontiers need to be expanded. Cheers to all kilt wearers. Triple cheers to all SKIRT wearers. We gotta throw off the restrictions on us, guys.

If it fits, wear it. Quit wasting your time trying to find testicles somewhere inside so that you can call it a kilt. To everyone else it’s still a skirt. Like I said, if it fits, wear it!

> That Scots wear kilts is no matter on their part of interest in freedom of dress, except as it applies to their fixed, rigid, changeless, standardized hereditary costume.

Did you even read my post, or just see the word “kilt” and decide to reply to that? The diversification of kilt styles which I mentioned in my first paragraph pretty much disproves this point. The kilt today is anything but rigid and changeless. There are velvet kilts, PVC kilts, camouflage-pattern kilts, pinstripe kilts. I happen to prefer the old-fashioned version for myself, but that’s just a matter of personal style.

The kilt, of course, is a garment designed for men, just as most women’s trousers are designed for women. Wearing the opposite sex’s clothes is a separate issue: it remains frowned upon for men, while women get away with it in a casual context (the question above about whether women would turn up to work in men’s clothes missed the issue of *why* they might not: the fact is it simply wouldn’t look smart enough – which is a lot less serious than the reaction a man would get for turning up to work in a dress).

I like the fact that my kilt remains out of the ordinary (I’ve lived south of the Border for years now). In particular, I like the attention I get from women when wearing it. More men in skirts would, for me, mean competition!

Looking further back, in the ancient greek, it was customary that for theater men wopuld dress fully as if the y would be women to act out the feminim parts. Look at the attire in the old Rome, is there much of a difference between the attire of men and women?

Isn’t the basic problem that a double standard is used and many lack the historical knowlegde?

TYPO should read ” Amongst OTHER things.

With respect;

You Said, “None of us are helped in a positive way by those suffering from a mental illness known as gender dysphoria. These individuals hopefully may improve under the care of a psychiatrist. Such an individual may well be unable to relate to members of the opposite sex in a meaningful manner. For a man to wish to appear as a woman is about as inappropriate as a man who may wish to appear as a leopard or monkey. Insecurity. ” Amongst things.

Now the way you write sugeests that you are an educated man. So I am frankly amazed at your lack of awareness of gender.

A man wishing to look like a woman is entirely different to a man wishing to look like a leopard, an entirely different species, now he might well be mentally ill, or maybe he just likes leopards.

Also I would like to know how you define 100 percent male. I would like to hear your definition.

Are you aware that there is no scientific test to define either male or female?

You are not male just because you were born with External genitalia, and not female because you were not.

Are you aware that the head of your penis is in fact the same flesh that would be your clitoris had you been given eostrogen instead of testosterone as a fetus? And that with sufficient eostrogen you could develope perfectly normal breasts, and with progesterone even lactate?

Yor nipples are just the same as your wifes nipples, did you know that? They are simply reduntant on you as you are “male”.

Sorry you are wrong. Someone who feels themselves to be more like a female than their male body would suggest them to be, is not mentally ill. Differences in brain structure have now been identified in transgendered peoples, be they female to male or male to female.

Far from enough is understood about human gender, sexuality or sex(as in the assigning of sex as an identity).

We have limited words. Only male and female to describe infinitley more complex beings than those two words can begin to describe.

Transgender is also simply another word that attempts to encompass a group of people who feel different to the way that they are expected to behave according societies current narrow norms.

Its not a perfect word describing a fully understood subject.

The whole issue of clothing has become entwined in this narrow view of how we as humans are supposed to behave.

Of course, there is NO DOUBT, that some people wishing to express themselves as a woman, will desire to wear a dress, makeup, lace etc, i.e all the things that are currently only acceptable for women. Such people wish to appear and feel as “feminine” as they can.

Is it surprisng since only women are deemed suitable for such clothing, that someone who feels themselves to be a woman, should want to appear in so called womens clothes?

Would anybody here deny them that right?

Others, like yourself, simply like to wear the things you describe just because you like them.

And you should have that right.

I dont understand why you are so hostile to those of us that might feel less “masculine” than how you describe yourself to be.

Please also describe and define masciline behaviour.

Personally I like to ski (very fast, climb trees, and volcanoes, fight occasionally, drink beer, swear, fart, smell and arrange flowers, sew, sometimes cry watching an emotional scene in a film, like to wear earings, sweet smelling perfume (united colours of beniton HOT), wear a long dress, silk lacy underwear, ride motorbikes, ———— well the list is endless.

Oh and by the way, I am not Homosexual, although I would not be ashamed if I was.

I have no idea of what is feminine and what is masculine. Its all just human behaviour to me. That may sound like a stupid comment, but the older I have got, the more I have experienced and experimented, the less i am able to say that I am exclusively masculine, or feminine for that matter.

But as regards transexuals, they definitley feel themselves to be minds occupying the wrong body, and medical science is rapidly discovering that they are NOT deluded.

Nature is not a perfect machine for the manufacture of humans. It doesn’t work to a blueprint.

If on the other hand you believe in creation by god, then you would have to conclude that the god in question made a bit of a mess of it.

Without all the ridiculous rules and restrictions place on all of us, by the cultures and societies we live in, there would be much more likelihood that those born with minds that dont align with their bodies would be able to accept themselves by freedom of expression, since they would not be called mentally ill.

Coming back to clothes, if we treat them as a seperate issue, if that is indeed possible, surely it should simply be EVERY PERSONS right to wear anything they want from the vast array of clothing, accessories, perfumes etc that exist.

And if somebody wishes they had breast in order to fill the bra they like to wear, and stuffs them with false ones, and someone likes bum and hip pads to give the impression that they are shapelier than they really are —— is that so very different to the guy that combes his hair over his bald spot to conceal the fact that he is loosing his hair? Whos he trying to kid, and who am I to criticise him?

And should we win the right and freedom to wear whatever we wish at the expense of others rights, just because our feelings and reasons are not the same as theirs ?

This a great debate, lets keep it going and be more open minded. I am learning a lot from it.

I have seen women wear just about anything that you could imagine, and some I can’t believe that I have seen. All of these women that I have seen presented as a woman. They didn’t disguise their voice or attempt to hide their bust. They were 100% female whether it was a grubby pair of overalls best suited for cleaning manure from a cow barn or a white lace dress with expensive jewelry. No gender spectrum. Just all woman.

Now there are the mentally questionable guys with their feminine looking wigs, quivering voices, rags stuffed into a bra and even shoving a tampon up their rectum. Makes one wish to vomit. Please never confuse that with the desire to wear a variety of clothing as do most women while presenting always as a real 100% genuine female. In the same manner I choose between a skirt or pants just as would a woman. I’m always at the 100% male mark on the gender spectrum regardless of my garment selections. Being 100% male in my presentation has never stopped me from wearing a pink miniskirt with a white lace blouse. I still talked & acted like the real 100% male that I have always been & always will be. No tampon up my butt. No trying to make like someone that I’m not. As I have stated before, looking like an escapee from a mental hospital certainly does noting for clothing freedom. Women never looked like a nut case when they began to wear pants. I have no issues with my wife wearing whatsoever she pleases or any of our daughters. I would have a very serious issue if she were to attempt to represent herself as a man in public. I’m absolutely certain she would go ballistic if I were to attempt to pass as a woman in public. I am always a man. Clothing freedom does not require an expression or symptom of gender dysphobia.

Think about it. Follow the ladies path to total clothing freedom without the psychological baggage. Unless you want to replace the village idiot as being the joke of the town.

I really appreciate your informative posts, and I don’t want to by any means take away from the point you make. One minor comment though:

I think you’re confusing “transgendered” with “transexual”. The distinction being the same as between one’s “sex” versus one’s “gender”.

Transgendered individuals typically reject or seek to redefine “male” or “female” roles as imposed by society. Transgendered women for example could be those who prefer to present in attire and traits that society identifies as on the “masculine” side, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they want male anatomy. Males are not afforded such freedom (as you point out.), and as soon as a man puts on a skirt he is deemed “transgendered” (which may be an appropriate definition since the man is defying traditional gender roles, but unfortunately has a negative connotation since the same restrictions aren’t applied to women). Transexuals on the other hand are those who seek to change their physical sex and live entirely as the opposite sex.

Often these two groups are lumped into the same category, but they are actually quite different. Many women would fit under the category of “transgendered” in that they can present and act across a fairly wide gender spectrum whereas any man who would attempt the same would end up on that heap you talk about.

I would identify myself as transgendered. I have no interest in having a sex change, and am heterosexual. My interest in wearing a skirt lies in the fact that I consider myself somewhere towards the middle of the gender spectrum and wish as a man I could freely present as such – like many of my female friends can.

While many readers may not wish to be identified as “transgendered” because of the negative connotations imposed by society, they should know that they likely share many of the same philosophical ideas as transgendered people – and should consider TG folks their friends on this issue.

Plaid is seldom drab.