Why don’t men wear skirts?


5:26 pm - March 14th 2008

by publicansdecoy    


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The other day I asked readers of my blog how they felt about men who wear skirts and/or make-up.

I’m a man. I’ve worn skirts, dresses and make-up on occasion in the past. I imagine I’ll do so again at some point in the future, but I wouldn’t dare to wear a skirt out in public (or at least not outside certain ‘safe’ public places) because I value my personal safety too much. Whilst I will concede that there was an element of deliberately doing so to be ‘different’, my choice was primarily based on the same simple reason I wear anything: because it was comfortable and I thought it looked good.

Although I was genuinely interested in what you thought specifically about men in skirts/make-up, there was a wider context to the question too. It was about men choosing to do things which have traditionally been considered the preserve of just women. Wearing skirts is just one very obvious external sign of that. I could have added in all sorts of other things too. I could have asked what you thought of men who choose to stay home raising children while the mother goes out to work. I could have asked what you think of men with long hair, but I suspect that’s more of an issue in this country than other places. Essentially, I was wondering why society (or at least progressive society) seems a lot more willing to accept and support women who seek to push into areas traditionally considered the preserve of men, but a lot less concerned about men seeking to push into areas considered the preserve of women.

It’s a given that feminism and the battle against sexism is about supporting and fighting for the rights of women to break into traditional male-only areas, that they shouldn’t be confined to the things traditionally designated just for women. Thus the idea that women can work as builders or can wear trousers or can drink a pint of bitter is not really questioned as much as it once was. That’s not to say that prejudice has disappeared, but intolerance has declined and will hopefully continue to decline. But this doesn’t have seem to cut back the other way. Nobody bats an eyelid if a woman turns up for work in the office wearing trousers, but no man could get away with turning up to his office job in a skirt. Societal norms saying what each gender should and shouldn’t do are largely illogical nonsense. Women have been agitating and organising to break down the barriers standing in their way for a long time, and have made a lot of progress. There doesn’t seem to have been a comparable push by men. The wearing of skirts is a very visible example of this.

Any reasonably enlightened or even logical person should be able to see that there is no good reason why women are ‘allowed’ to wear skirts and men aren’t. If you accept that a woman wearing trousers is perfectly normal and acceptable, then what possible objection could you raise to a man wearing a skirt? I think most people accept this argument, accept that people should be free to wear whatever they want, but they still feel the need to qualify this by saying “but I think it looks stupid/*I* wouldn’t do it/I find it unattractive when men do”. Reaction to a man wearing a skirt is different to our reaction to a woman wearing one. I’ve been wondering why that is and I can’t help but feel that it has something do with a residual attachment to illogical norms, despite our professed enlightenment. Women wanting to dress like men is acceptable and understandable, but men wanting to dress like women is perverse and nonsensical. It’s put forward best by Lauren O in this thread:

I think it’s perhaps more likely that it’s easier for society to accept women taking on men’s roles than it is for men to take on women’s roles because women are seen as inferior. A woman wanting to take on men’s roles seems less offensive, because, the reasoning goes, who wouldn’t want to be a member of the superior sex? A man wanting to take on women’s roles seems more offensive, because what man would ever want to degrade himself like that?

I think there’s something in this. I doubt it’s ever considered in such explicit terms by the people, but it seems to me this is the underlying reason for the expressions of reluctance. It’s even understood on at least some level by the angry young man who would almost certainly kick the crap out of me if I tried to walk through the town centre at night in a skirt. He’d do it because he’d find what I’m doing offensive, because it’s not what men should do. However enlightened we think we are, we still make nonsensical connections between gender and behaviours, and ‘girly’ behaviours are still looked down on as being only acceptable for girls, whereas ‘manly’ behaviours are seen as acceptable for all. I don’t want to accuse anybody in particular of this, but if your reaction to a man wearing a skirt is in any way more negative than your reaction to a woman wearing a skirt, ask yourself why. Is this inconsistency mirrored in your reactions to men wearing trousers and women wearing trousers?

I am happy to call myself a feminist, but a more accurate term would be gender egalitarian. I support the goals of equal pay for men and women, equal suffrage and, yes, the right for women to wear trousers without getting hassled. But I do so because it’s part of a wider philosophy for me – the idea of decoupling societal assumptions from one’s gender. I don’t want to move to some kind of androgynous, homogenous, unigender. What I would like is a society without expectations being placed around gender. The idea of “men’s clothing” and “women’s clothing” is just one part of that. There is simply clothing. Women can wear trousers or skirts; men can wear trousers or skirts and it shouldn’t matter a bit to anyone. This goes for the many other things which are traditionally thought of as being exclusively or predominately male or female. Manly men and girly girls and manly girls and girly men and all shades in between should be welcome. There should be no prejudice faced by any shade. There should be no ‘only if (I think) it looks good’ caveat.

So much for the ideal. I think most people are still attached to the norms associated with their gender. They have no desire to jettison them and they shouldn’t have to. But what they find comforting and reassuring, others find restrictive and suffocating. The feminist movement has done a wonderful job at taking the sledgehammer to one particular set of assumptions, but there is a wider battle here. It’s a battle to be fought by everyone. It’s why feminism is not just for women. Men are in a relatively privileged position, but are constrained by gender assumptions just as much as women were and are. Perhaps when men start challenging these norms, by wearing skirts for example, it will be a sign of that battle being won. And maybe one day men wearing skirts will be as unremarkable as women wearing trousers.

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Reader comments


An arguably complicating feature here is the phenomenon of fetishistic transvestitism, a very common fantasy for men and one that is quite tied up with the feminine=demeaning ideology. While I am not one to judge people’s sexual fantasies on political grounds, that fact on the ground does make it more difficult for men to wear dresses in a way that doesn’t attract a form of social censure.

That and the fact that you can get beaten up too. That doesn’t help either.

This is hardly an adequate discussion.

You’ve neglected the entire history of how woman came to wear trousers. Such factors might well weigh on whether men start to wear skirts on not.

Additionally I think it’s perhaps more likely that it’s easier for society to accept women taking on men’s roles than it is for men to take on women’s roles because women are seen as inferior. strikes me as simplistic preaching to the converted. There are reputedly more male to female tranvestites and transexuals than female to male. Were the quote it suggests that all such people are basically masochistic. On the contrary they seem to me to become stronger not weaker.

So there’s STILL social censure of scots and the clergy?

My view is that were there any qualified and reputably trendy fashionistas designing modern male skirting styles and thereby formally supporting legless clothing for men as anything other than traditional or formal wear then this wouldn’t be in question.

It’s a supply-side issue which exists because of a lack of confidence in the potential of economic returns from the market – one sarong doesn’t make a season!

As someone said when you posted this on LJ: perhaps the reason men don’t wear skirts is that they are horrible impractical garments? I never get chafed thighs in trousers, and that’s without the whole running/climbing/etc. issue.

The question could just as easily be: “Why don’t women wear skirts?”

There has been a massive change since the 40s and 50s, when pretty well every woman wore a skirt, to the situation today where trousers, pants and jeans are the norm. But I suspect this has everything to do with practicality and very little to do with ‘taking on male roles’.

thank you for writing this – if i were a man i’d be pissed! you’re absolutely right, why is it that if a man wants to wear a skirt, he will be laughed at? ( and most women would ridicule him..) and i think that there is something absolutely in what you say – it appears to most people that women would want to do what men have done, but why would a man want to do what a woman does. i’m interested in getting away from gender stereotypes but it doesn’t seem too many people are interested in that. an individual should be able to do what he/she/’it’ wants, irrespective of what ‘group’ had a ‘monopoly’ on that activity in the past – why should he/she/’it’ not appropriate something for their own self – without any gender connotation? Practical or not – the skirt-wearing thing is a good case-study of social reaction to how deeply entrenched ideas about gender and gender roles are, and how wearing something ‘signifies’ such a role.

Of course, the real issue is that it cuts to the core of where gender stereotypes come from in the first place – constructions of group identity – for ‘men’ and for ‘women’ – which are then given a label “masculine” – what is considered suitable’ desirable for the ‘men’ group – and “feminine” – what is considered desirable/suitable for the group ‘women’. these constructions are social constructions of course, and therefore likely to change over time, but are held very dear..and boy there is a lot of trouble if an individual wants to come along and appropriate any characteristic/behaviour one or other of the groups thinks its got a ‘monopoly’ on. of course people nowadays are more relaxed about ‘mix and match’ but there is still a huge buying -into the idea of something as ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ in itself. which of course is rubbish.

This is a special case of a general rule. There is less variation in male than female clothing styles in every sense.

Look at any formal occasion, and all the men will be dressed almost identically.

Clothing sends a signal, and it is all a question of what signal you intend to send.

There are reputedly more male to female tranvestites and transexuals than female to male.

TDK – I have heard that, do you know of any evidence/ something to link to?

Women wearing trousers are not wearing man’s clothes – they are women’s clothes that happen to be trousers. In much the same way, men who wear kilts are not wearing women’s clothes – they are wearing a skirt that has been designed for men. If a woman turned up for work wearing a man’s suit, she’d get much the same response as a man in a skirt. People use clothes to signify their identity, including their gender/sexual identity. The reason both men and women wear clothes that do not belong to their gender is because they don’t, for a variety of reasons, feel comfortable with the roles society has carved out for their genders. This is obviously how you feel. I wish you well with that but spare us the bullshit arguments please.

I don’t mind at all, as long as you all dress nicely when you’re out and about in your frocks.

It’s drag that really gets on my tits. Drag really IS demeaning to women. It’s a very stylised, male view of what women are – lipstick, big boobs, huge hair, and twittery halfwittery.

Sexist in the extreme.

lipstick, big boobs, huge hair, and twittery halfwittery.

Ah! You’ve met the wife, then?

Which wife, Mike? – I’m guessing the most recent one…?

Ha, ha! Touche! I walked right into that one didn’t I?

Actually she refers to herself as my LAST wife!

All Power to her.

Kate has a good point.

Drag -as far as i can see – – is a fetishization of a gender stereotype. imho – a person feels they missed out on by virtue of physical birth – and perhaps therefore seems desperate to exaggerate and idealise, what they think the ‘other’ is all about. the grass is greener on the other side and all that sort of stuff. problem is though that it is still very much about keeping gender stereotypes alive – in fact – its all about seeing identity through existing stereotypes, and externalities. Or about tying in a person’s reality – with gender – in an inescapable way. it’s following group expectations – in a pronounced way – just because we’re not in the group we want to be! but ah well, if a person wants to do that, i can kind of understand – if you feel you reject one role, you might then think aha! the opposite of that must be the thing for me, perhaps you want to parody the role you have rejected, i don’t know. but its a shame we can’t get away from the demarcation of clothes and activities by “gender” – and “marking” what we are by what we wear, and fundamentally, this binary opposition of “masculine” and “feminine” which is so damn freudian!

It is interesting, the stereotyping that society finds acceptable. For example, we find blackface – which is a horrible exaggeration of a stereotype – absolutely unacceptable (and rightly so). Drag – although also an extremely unpleasant exaggeration of a stereotype – is considered entirely acceptable and even highly amusing – Lily Savage, Edna Everage, etc. Go figure.

17. Margin4 Error

Would it be very out of order to suggest this was partly because most men don’t waste their lives worrying about what to wear?

Is it so bad that men give relatively little thought to the superficial world of external appearance? Granted that makes it hard to market many varied clothes, face paint or silly contraptions like hair straighteners. But is that so bad?

Is it terrible that most of what men wear over a week is dictated not by what some kabal of magazine editors has declared “fashionable” that week?

Add to that that men tend to buy clothes as a chore – and so when buying jeans ignore the shirts section, the ties section, the shoes section, and presumably the skirt section of the shop – and a question arrises.

Is it not more alarming a fact that women still waste so much time, energy and money being told what to wear (all be it by fashion editors instead of their dad, priest, or husband) when this waste of human and natural resource serves nothing but superficial whim?

18. Margin4 Error

ps – i barely know a single man who has not at some stage dressed in drag for a drunken night out – it looks awful but it tends to be good fun.

Thanks all for the (mostly very polite) comments. I’ve been away from the internet over the weekend, so have only just seen these.

Personally, I find skirts more comfortable in some ways than trou, particularly in summer. The point I was trying to make, though, was about more than just skirts. Men doing things traditionally thought of as being womanly things suffer far more derision than women traditionally doing things traditionally thought of as manly things. I waish that was “bullshit”, but sadly it ain’t.

Interesting stuff, although I do think its a tad too easy to get caught up in questions of gender, drag and all things related to the exclusion of wider considerations of the kind of social pressures that exist, generally, and which push towards conformity to tightly defined norms.

A couple of a years back we took my son to his first rock festival (Download) and made a point of inviting my niece to come with us as well. She was fourteen at the time, had decided to go in for the Goth thing because that’s what she feels most comfortable with and was having a terrible time at school with both the teachers and with other kids because she pretty much the only female Goth in her year. As she’s always had a few self-esteem problems growing up this was hardly what she needed. She’s even started on a bit of mild self-harming (mainly scratching her arms) and her school was next to useless because they saw how she looked as part of the ‘problem’ rather than her simply expressing herself.

So, she had a five day break with us, away from all the hassles, amongst 80,000 people none of whom gave a toss what she wore or how she looked – and there were a fair few blokes wandering round in skirts and dresses as well with no pretensions of looking like they were in ‘drag’ – however you might want to define ‘drag’, a shaved head, pair of cherry reds and a light A-line summer dress aint the stuff of the ‘traditional’ drag queen, it’s just a bloke wearing a dress because he feels like it.

So for a few days she had no abuse, no smart-arse comments, no one staring at her, just a big crowd of people around her who accept each other for what they are, including a fair few who took to her just because she was young and thought she looked cute…

She’s come on leaps and bounds since then, just for having had the chance to spend a bit of time in a non-judgemental environment and see for herself that there are people who’ll accept for who she is… and best of all, the self-harming has stopped completely.

“women still waste so much time, energy and money being told what to wear”

I must have missed that part of the instruction manual. There was a book in Tesco’s the other day called “50 women who changed the world” and three of them were fashion designers. *I* put it back on the shelf in disgust, but other people won’t have…

Unity, in a further effort to contrast your massive posts, I’ll simply say this: well done 😉

22. Margin4 Error

Fair play Jennie – you did well to skip that chapter – I found out last week that dgh hair straighteners (or something similar) cost over £100 a piece. Thats enough cash for a night out at the theatre, football, opera, or pretty much anything else in London. I was stunned.

oh – and the question must be asked – who was left out of such a book to make way for fashion designers? After all – as Al Murray said – “Most of the hounds don’t know where the fox is – in fact most of the hounds don’t even know there is a fox. They’re just hapilly following arseholes… And that is all anyone needs to know about fashion.”

Well, it didn’t have any of the Garrett sisters in, or Ada Lovelace. But it did have Princess Di.

When I used to go to Leeds festival I would usually wear skirts/dresses. I never got any stick, except the one year Oasis played and the site was swarming with their fans. Festivals are just a great open-minded, friendly place to be. It’s always depressing to return to the real world and all its pettiness after a weekend away at a festival.

25. Margin4 Error

ah – the people’s princess…
Interesting choice in Ada Lovelace though – given how we are communicating right now.

There was a documentary about her on radio four recently, that’s why she sprang to mind…

27. Margin4 Error

Yet more evidence I should listen to the radio more…

There was a book in Tesco’s the other day called “50 women who changed the world” and three of them were fashion designers.

I suppose it is all a question of what changes to the world the readers are interested in…

Well, if one of the fashion designers mentioned had succeeded in making skirts acceptable wear for men then I suspect we wouldn’t be having this discussion…

It’s actually seen as “sexy” and “comfy” for women to wear men’s clothes. While I was growing up my girlfriends would ask to wear my clothes all the time, in public even. I’d have been in serious physical danger had I attempted to do the same thing.

I do think there’s something to this argument – that it’s demeaning for men to want to present “feminine”, but empowering for women to do the same. Girl in guy’s boxers = sexy/comfy, guy in sweater dress = pervert.

In many ways it feels like we’re still living in the 1800’s. Men’s liberation just hasn’t yet happened, and we’re a ways away from gender equality.

For what it’s worth, I’m a happily married liberated man (crossdresser if you must). I only dress at home of course for my own safety, and not for “sex”. (I am heterosexual – not bi or gay btw). While I’d agree that skirts can be uncomfortable, I have a few sweater dresses I really wish I could wear out because they are so superior in terms of comfort to pants and a shirt.

One day, I hope the world will wake up and realize that women don’t make themselves beautiful for the benefit of men. When you finally realize that, it allows you to allow for the possibility that a man may want to be pretty too – and not for the benefit of men, but maybe for his own benefit and/or that of his accepting and open-minded wife. I’m the luckiest man in the world, and my wife and I share in both the “masculine” and “feminine” sides of each other – together.

YES. IF MEN LIKE TO WEAR A WOMEN’S DESS WHY NOT. IT IS ALL PERSONAL LIKINGS. THERE IS NO DIVIDE AND RULE POLICY THAT SKIRTS ARE TOBE WORN BY WOMEN ONLY. IF WOMEN WANT THEM NOT TOB DOMINATED BY MASCULINE CULPRITS AND HUSBAND DACOITS THEY SHOULD MAKE EVERY HUSBAND A SHE-MALE AND KEEP THEM ALWAYS DRESSED IN SKIRTS OR KEEP THEM NAKED CHAINED LIKE DOGS

MY DEAR WOMEN FOLKS: DONOT LET YOUR HUSBANDS DOMINATE YOU;REALIZE YOUR POWER AND STRENGTH;KEEP YOUR HUSBANDS LIKE DOGS ;CHAIN THEM NAKED AT HOME AND WHEN GOING OUT TAKE THEM WITH YOU DRESSED IN MAID UNIFORM;
SEE YOUR MEN WORE BRAS ALSAYS; NEVER KEEP THE WITH BARE TOPS; ALWYS WEAR IN THEM BRAS

Tis is all so silly. For those who say a woman can wear a mens suit and go to work and receive the same negative attention as a man wearing a dress, high heels stockings and makeup is full of it. Get real. Women are free to express themselves in any manner they see fit without any negative repercussions, period. They can wear plain cotton boring underwear or sexy silky underwear. They can wear a skirt and blouse that is basic, jeans and a tee shirt, or a silky flowing sheer chiffon dress and be accepted in any of these outfits. They can cry if they are sad or hurt men cannot. It is so easy to say oh yea they can or oh no they can’t but in the REAL world were I live, women have complete freedom of choice in all they do. True if a woman becomes the CEO of a large company there will be some that may call her a “B”, but she is still free to pursue it.

Men have limitations on their lives from birth and those are usually put there by their mothers. My little boy won’t cry, he’s a man, don’t be a wimp, oh boys don’t play with that, boys don’t wear that. Come ON.

Men do not wear womens dresses simply because in the past most female clothing was made to attract males. Not so much today but the damage s done. Lingerie has only recently being made of cotton. No self respecting female would wear cotton panties when I was a girl and I still think they are gross. Slips were sexy and silky and lacy. Dress were silk and polyester, soft and flowing. And all women wore stockings or pantyhose. And sorry girls but those of you who do not wear stockings, your legs do not look good.

So men would not wear things that were to attract other men. As well lingerie being silky would or could have a sexual impact on a male in that their sexual arousal comes from sensation on the outside and womens lingerie is very sensual and soft and slippery.

talking about cross dressing, I’ve yet to see a woman wear a mens clothes convincingly – trouser suit it may be, but the cut is not the same.

Clothes don’t have a gender nor do they reproduce in a sexual manner. Given that there aren’t mens clothes nor are there womens clothes. Clothes come in sizes. There unfortunately isn’t such a thing as a standard size since those numbers sewn into those tags vary from brand to brand. One company’s XL may be smaller than an XXL from another brand. So you use the size charts. How complicated is that? Anyone who has worn a skirt can attest to the fact that they’re more comfortable than shorts of the same length since the skirt is less confining. A short skirt during the hot summer months is much cooler than shorts since the garment is only attached to the body at the waist rather than through the lower torso and upper thighs. That observation shouldn’t surprise anyone. Buy clothes in your size to allow you to be comfortable. Buy clothes that are appropriate for your activity. I definitely wouldn’t wear a miniskirt to nail shingles on a roof nor would I wear trousers to jump from a diving board into a pool. Just common sense. My wife & daughters live in pants except for maybe one or two days per year. I don’t have any issue with that since clothes cover the body so you won’t get arrested for indecent exposure by the local police officers. I live in a skirt & shirt. Longer skirts during the winter season, shorter skirts during the summer season. I get no reaction from anyone when I’m out with my family. Alone I’ve received quite a few comments from ladies ranging from “nice skirt” to “nice legs”. The only reason that I think that other men would not wear a skirt on a daily basis is that they allow others to do their thinking for them rather than to think for themselves. I seriously doubt that I could please everyone on this planet even if I tried so I’ll just be a happy family man in a skirt & a shirt with a wife in pants & a shirt. That works for me!

36. freestyler

Well,let’s first see the history of clothing.Your grandmothers did not wear trousers or other man’s garments,shoes accessories. Don’t tell me that this is woman’s clothing – it is just feminized man’s style stuff,and still many women wear things directly from the men’s shelvs. Last year women did not wear ties, now they do – is it also women’s apparel? Or you will say that it is made for women and thus make it women’s. So if they make a dress very much the same as a woman’s one byt cut for a man’s body it would be alright to say that this is not women’s clothing?Let’s have equal standrt for sexes?fethishizm – not all men are fetishist about this and assume that some women were sexually aroused by that – women also can be fetishist. Trousers are pratctical – yep if you do not have testicles they are. For male anathomy a skirt is more comfortable. Clothes that attract men – I;ve seen man that like tomboys – they wear man’s clothes and shoes and still noone bats an eye. So forget that double standard if a man want to explore so called women’s stuff this is gender equality! in nature males look prettier,only humans had perverted that. Clothing can be used to attract women. Genders must be equal, not the double standart of narrow-minded people- who say that whatever women does or wears simply turns into women’s clothes or profession and for males just limitations!So shove the prejudice you know where, when i put on a skirt etc I do not get aroused.Enough said – romans,greeks,egyptians and many more wore skirts,dresses,french men heels – read some history.Wpomen were also crossdressers before it all became woman’s clothing,first women in trousers were lessbiaNS, but when a deviation becomes a mass one it becomes a norm- so my point is narowmindedness is retarded!

I found this statement to be quite telling of the mindset of some people.

Add to that that men tend to buy clothes as a chore – and so when buying jeans ignore the shirts section, the ties section, the shoes section, and presumably the skirt section of the shop – and a question arrises.

When I go shopping for “normal” male clothing, which is rare, I find it a chore cause the styles are all the friggin same for the most part. Oh sure there might be a difference in the pocket or belt loop, but honestly the items of clothing for men for below the waist are dull.

When I go to the thrift shop to find a new skirt for wearing around I find that the choices are wide. Leather, spandex, satin, cotton, and so on. Several lengths to choose. Tightness from super tight to very airy and loose, heck even the way the darn things are fastened vary. There are skirts I see and imediately want to see how it looks and feels on me. Jeans? Not so much, just want to make sure they fit.

Men’s clothing are borring, and men have been brought up over the years to not care for personal appearance. The only quality they were to express was function and ruggedness. It is more than time that men had a choice between a pair of pants or a nice skirt for a formal event. Still presenting a masculine image, but with a skirt.

I myself am a straight male that loves to wear skirts, and I also love leggings, and usually wear hosiery with my skirts, once again variety. I do my best to present a masculine image, I forgo the make up, and wear either no heel, or at most a 1 1/2 inch heel. No wigs, no fake hips or breasts, no squeaky voice, or other things associated with drag.

I am no more a cross dresser than the women that wear pants predominately. For the people that say the trousers worn by women are cut for women and therefore are feminine I say So what. There really is no way to cut a skirt for either sex, there is no inseam. Sure the hips can be a factor, but I have found women’s skirts fit me just fine. The only thing that make the skirts I and several other men wear feminine is societie’s hang up on gender issues. The idea that women are inferior still permeates our world, and women don’t help themselves in this regard.

I find it amusing that I run the risk of being called faggot when I find most of my gay friends wear jeans, or slacks and wouldn’t dare wear a skirt, unless it was for drag.

I have enjoyed reading this discussion very much and I find that I agree wirth much of what has been written. Well as a confirmed kilt and skirt wearer I suppose that I would.

It all started about 6 years ago when I bought a kilt. The comfort and sense of freedom that it provided made me an instant convert and i now only were trousers and shorts when the situation demands it. I have found that generally there are little or no negative reactions and that positive comments and compliments are quite frequent.

I have always felt that as individuals we should all decide for ourselves how we present ourselves to the rest of the world. People who do not know us personally judge and assess us by our outward appearance. So why should how we dress be determined by others who know nothing about us as individuals. If those important first impressions are so heavily influenced by our choice of clothing, we should not allow others to limit our self expression by trying to impose “rules”. We are constantly being pushed into boxes, catagorised and told what to to wear and how to behave. I have always hated the idea of uniforms and “corporate attire”. It seems to me that it depersonalises the individual so that they are seen as job functionary rather than as a person. The addition of a name badge does little to dispel the attitude that your are dealing with a “manager” or “sales assistant”. So you react with them in a way that denies their individuality. I admit that there are some jobs and professions where making the individual disappear behind a unform is an advantage, particularly with say the police, where they gain authority and anonimity through the uniform. You therefore relate to them not as individuals but as representatives of a larger body.

Wider acceptance of men wearing skirts is I think still a long way off. Although I have found little in the way of negative reactionsto my own skirt wearing, over the last six years not one on our friends has decided to do the same. Whilst it is tolerated and even sometimes admired, not one of many hundreds of men that I must have encountered whilst skirted has said to me that it was how they wanted to dress as well. I know that as a rule men do not chat about clothing etc so it maybe that some of secretly want to try skirts, but I suspect that really they are as concerned as I was originally about not fitting into the box any more.

As a happily married guy in my late forties all I can say to the suggestion by Shuggy that:

“The reason both men and women wear clothes that do not belong to their gender is because they don’t, for a variety of reasons, feel comfortable with the roles society has carved out for their genders.”

Is that you may be right for some but Shuggy is way off the mark for me. I first wore a kilt as a bit of a giggle for my wife who had often commented that men in kilts looked sexy. I was amazed by the comfort and freedom it provided. After the night out I did not throw it away as planned but wore it more and more. I expected some negativity from friends and family but did not get it. I expected grief in Tesco and certainly at the pub – nothing (well maybe a little gentle leg pulling in my local, but nothing more).

I bought another kilt and then added a similar length denim skirt to the wardrobe. No reaction beyond an occasional positive remark. Eventually I realised that so long as I was me and comfortable with myself no one else seemed to care. That realisation gave me a huge personal boost of self-confidence and I now need as much wardrobe space as my wife does (I don’t get it!)

So my reason for wearing skirts when it suits me is simple; why shouldn’t I be comfortable?

If you’ve thought of trying a skirt but fear a beating, I’d just say wear it with pride and self confidence; you’re more likely to get beaten up because someone wants your mobile phone.

Have fun, be yourself; you only get one shot at life.

I feel as a man who wears skirts,that it is totally acceptable.We live in a country where freedom is the utmost right.If women want to wear pants that is their right.I on the other hand wear skirts because I find them cooler and much more comfortable than pants, this is my right.The fact is no one has the right to tell someone what to wear.We are all different.that is what makes the world go around.

‘Drag – although also an extremely unpleasant exaggeration of a stereotype – is considered entirely acceptable and even highly amusing – Lily Savage, Edna Everage, etc. Go figure.’

@ Kate (#16):

What Publicansdecoy said in the article pretty much deals with your musing:
‘it has something do with a residual attachment to illogical norms’.

I think the reason drag queens are the way they are is because while they’re an ‘amusing’ stereotype of femininity, they’re not threatening in any way. Comedy defuses tension rather than building it. I think if more and more drag queens emerged who were genuinely androgynous, people might freak out – in fact, it’s a common theme in much popular culture to have the unnerving androgynous figure (often a man who confuses other men), who raises the spectre of homo/bisexuality. So, you have the comic transvestite figure to help smother that, like the cissies in early Hollywood.

A whole lot of people lose out, but the conservative culture-providers get to make sure everything stays their way. :/

That’s just something I picked up in Queer Studies! 🙂

I have loved wearing skirts from the time I can remember back to. It has nothing to do with trying to attract other people to me. It has been a secret for most of my life and even now only a very few people know about it. It was the cause of my first marriage breaking up I loved my first wife dearly, she loved me and often said it but the need to wear skirts over rode everything and she was unable to tollorate it.
I have two children of my first marriage and they must wonder to this day why we were devorced. I have two children of my present marriage but they are not aware of my secret. My present wife does know all about it and though she prefers me dressed in traditional mens clothes allows me the leeway necessarry to keep my balance.
If society changed enough for me to wear skirts at all times I would do so but I am sure that the company I keep and the very good friends I have would change since they are friends with the male side of me not the soft girlie side.

well this seems by far the most interesting thread on the subject I have come across.
I have worn skirts and dresses out and about for the past 12 years, I have worn them all over the world and in fact got a rather posh one for my wedding last year. All my friends and family now know about the way I dress.
I do not really agree with the labeling of some people as transvestite, cross dressers etc. The reasons behind why I myself dress the way I do are varied, the most important reasons are 1. because I am anarchic, I don’t like being told what I can and can’t wear, 2. It feels good, pure and simple. 3. Men’s clothing is f**king boring, dreary colours, cut/tailored really badly, rough unpleasant fabrics etc, most clothes hang off men like sacks, and style? Forget it unless you want to spend a small fortune. Come off it folks I wouldn’t like women to have to go around in the sort of rubbish we have to wear!!! I think we need some choice, and a bit of excitement, clothing which reflects our sexuality, vitality and creativity! I wear women’s clothing because very little men’s clothing does any of those things.
On my travels people have reacted 80% positive, often people will ask why, very occasionally people will be rude and aggressive, but they are in a minority and there are a few places I would avoid, but I would probably avoid them if I was wearing trousers.
A few tips-
Some clothing is more suited to our shape ie no hips so get something with shape,
sarongs are not practical, get something else. Look on e-bay or take a girl and go and try stuff on in shops, it can be nerve racking or sometimes hilarious.
scared? Try a shorter skirt over trousers, this really confuses people and means you can get used to things slowly, if you get too stressed you can just whip the skirt off! After a while you can loose the trousers.
Hmmm mabye I should start a vlog…
anyway get on with it
Alan

dont samilyens were skirts

45. Richard Fader

I find it odd and very sad that women still think that men are in many ways different from themselves. There are chemical and physiological dfferences of course, but those have little to with personality, wants, needs, fears desires and temprement. The unpleasent truth is that masculinity as taight to each generation of boys is a constricting and involuntary divorce from reality, freedom and a sense of self. The rigid rules which govern the male living experience are, to my mind anyway, truly horrible both in their burden and their consequences. Unfortunately, they are so deeply burned into our psyches most people find it difficult to recognize their existence. Look at the use phraseology above for an example – ‘dressed as a woman’. What does this actually and factually mean. It means wearing clothes and accoutrements which have become reserved for one of the genders. There’s nothing intrinsically female about a skirt or dress if you make them the fit – the same way you would tailor any other garment to fit your form. Anatomically, skirts are more logical for the male body’s needs anyway. Pretty much all of the other identifiers which are denied mels are only the sole province of the other gender because of the inherited status quo. Physical mechanics aside, the living experience given to males is extraordinarily restricted in it’s breadth both psychlogically and in terms of permitted self expression. Perhaps that’s why men who don’t live in theior assigned box are so immediately recogized – not because of their siminlarity to women but because of their sheer brazen effrontery in casting aside the restrictions imposed on them. I would be astonished to find any woman who has even the tiniest understanding of what she might have to forego if she were to inhabit a male body for any length of time. I woud doubt if many (I’m sure there would be some) who would willingy live with the conditions of maleness though on a permanent basis. THe programming which is a lifelong process is proufoundly depressing. To see two children of school age is to see just where the imposition of the conditioning is at it’s most heinious. Using a combination of ridicule, humiliation and occasionally, physical force, shaven headed,jeans and T-shirt for life be-uniformed boys soon learn that they are indeed second class in every sense when compared to their sisters who’re taught that they are indeed worth it – and before the females on this board berate my views – I ask you in honesty, would you be male ? If so, you’re more likely to:- be murdered, be imprisoned, be a victim of crime, die in a work related accident, work in a filthy or unpleasant manual job, under achieve academically, die of heart disease young, commit suicide, be ejected from your home, have contact with your children be at the whim of an ex partner, be forced to financially subsidise an ex partner, be prohibited from dressing your own body as you see fit, become an alcoholic, be unemployed, die in a motor vehicle incident. Odd how the playing filed isn’t levelling off all of those ‘masculine privileges’. Someone once wrote that most men live lives of quiet desperation. It’s true, but until males have ‘permission’ to actually be people and admit such a feeling without the traditional inducements to conform of scorn, ridicule or humiliation, we might be better off lying drunk in a gutter somewhere.

I find it ridiculous that when I walk into a clothing store there’s no men’s section anymore, the store is divided into Womans and Unisex.

This just furthers the point that men can’t wear “womans” clothes but it’s perfectly acceptable to other way round.

The problem, EQ, is that you just made that nonsense up.

To Richard Fader:

I wish I had said all that first. Well so far nobody has berated you. But give it time. So better berate me too then because I completely agree with all you say.

And whilst this was primarily a question about clothing, skirts in particular, it surely reveals that our birth lables restrict us in so many ways. Although women less so, in the so called developed world these days.

Richard you said,
“I would be astonished to find any woman who has even the tiniest understanding of what she might have to forego if she were to inhabit a male body for any length of time. I woud doubt if many (I’m sure there would be some) who would willingy live with the conditions of maleness though on a permanent basis. ”

And one group that verifies what you say, are transgendered male to female. They cant abide to live as you describe, and do all they can in the face of hostile societies all around the world to escape from the prison you describe.

To a far lesser extent, the guy that just wants to feel free to wear a dress, pretty or otherwise, of silk chiffon or of cotton, or even shock horror, lingerie instead of cotton baggy boxer shorts, for no other reason than that he likes how looks and how it feels, is also imprisoned by the same tired old predjudices and arguments.

Not everybody is attractive. I have seen some considerably less than attractive women in full makeup and beautiful dresses. I could not in all honesty say they looked any better than some guys I have seen in similar clothing and makeup. In fact there is no disputing that some guys can look fantastic in makeup and a pretty dress.

So just why do so many women resent it when a guy wears a dress and 4 inch heels? Whats so wrong with it?

Rather than being an affront to women, I would say that most women dont realise how jealous many men are at the freedom women have with respect to how they are allowed to present and express themselves with clothing.

I used to think, like most men (probably because thats the way men get taught as boys somewhere along the way) that women dressed to attract others. I realise how wrong I was.

I too love to look in the mirror and be pleased by my relfection. I too love colour. I love sparkle. I also love to smell nice.

Remember when men had to be persuaded to at least not stink, and were encouraged to “splash it all over” by Henry Cooper. It took a heavy weight boxer to convince the average bloke and quite a few women that it was ok for a guy to smell nice. Not that I am sure if Brut was the all time favourite fragrance 🙂 But the girls seemed to like it back in the late 60s and early seventies.

Nowadays, I wear the latest rexona for women deoderant. I love the smell. Am I a fetishist for that too?

Come on. Lets hear an argument, based on logic and not emotion and outdated stereotypes, that explains why men shouldn’t wear anything women wear. Even bras. Some men have enough flesh on their chest to fill a B cup. 🙂

Uh, thanks, Nick, so much, for that pathetically myopic and backwards psycho-stab way of protecting your manhood by relegating the wear of unbifurcated garment by men, which, by the way, is what men have been wearing for 50,000 years, and what more than a third of the men on our planet still wear…

The idea of men wearing skirts hasn’t “just arrived.” It’s been here all along. It’s pants that are the passind fashion fad, historically speaking.

Excuse me, while I go find my sarong…

I am a man who likes to wear a skirt from time to time. I sometimes walk the streets of Paris, and Lyon. Sometimes in long skirts, sometimes wearing a short denim dress over opaque tights. I make no attempt to look female, and I hope it does not look too ridiculous. I am not attempting to shock anyone, although I am aware that it does attract attention.

In my experience most reactions are neutral amazement, not negative, not appreciative. On the whole, men – especially adolescents – are more negative in their reactions than women.
I am happily married, but my wife nor the children know. I am pretty sure they would not approve.

Why I do it; it puzzles me, and I have not fully rationalised it myself.

I think the trouble is, that it is somewhat complex. I cannot deny that there was some sense of vague sexual pleasure involved at first, but that was not the most important driver, and it is very temporary. As a driver it leads to a sense of guilt.

More persistent is a sense of comfort and physical freedom. I don’t think it has much to do with the male anatomy. I suspect that it can be much the same for a woman. It is possible that women no longer realise this, but to a man it is quite a strong feeling. This motivation has nothing to do with gender. I do not attempt to cross-dress, or to be perceived as female. I simply enjoy the feeling of a skirt.

It is not easy to see yourself as others do, and I am unsure that the sight is aesthetically pleasing, but it does give the wearer a sense of elegance. I am sure some would argue that a desire to feel elegant is a female desire that men should not aspire to. Our culture supports that, as Richard Fader said so eloquently above. It is therefore very legitimate to ridicule a man in skirt. I do not see that changing overnight, so for the time being, I continue to indulge occasionally. I wear the negative comments and I am very grateful for the odd appreciative smile.

Karel,

I envy you your courage. I wish I had enough to do the same. I would love to walk in public in a dress and heels. Perhaps even some makeup.

Like you, I dont expect or try to pass as a woman. I think I would like to be able to, but I never could. But as you say thats not the point.

Its the pleasure of wearing a skirt or dress in itself that IS the point for me. They feel nice, they are comfortable.

I have sometimes thoiught that I wish I was a woman for the sole reason that I could wear whatever I want, that dresses skirts nice tops etc.

But I do not dislike being a man.

As you say it is complex.

But the reason I like to wear what is considered female clothing and would love to be able to do so in company or in public, is simply because I love womens clothing. I look at dresses and skirts in shops and simply desire them. I want to own them and to wear them

What you say about the sexual aspect is so true, and is only fleeting for so many of us I suspect..

But I have had coinversations with past girl friends, who have told me that certain lingerie and dresses make them fel turned on and feel sexy.

And I agree, women kind take for granted wearing the clothing they wear and no longer notice the pleasure as much as for them it is an everyday expereience. I know from experience with previous girlfriends, that when they have been out of a dress and heels for a wihile, (for example, two weeks camping, or other times where she has only been in jeans and t shirts), just how pleased they are to be able to don a dress again.

If women were denied that freedom perhaps they might understand us a little more.

Women enjoy wearing pretty dresses and underwear. They love makeup and jewelry. I no longer believe that that enjoyment is an exclusively “female” thing.

But as you say, it will be a long time if ever that the world will agree with me.

The more I read the more I realise just how many men out there share these feelings and desires.

I hope I live long enough to see guys walking down the street in a dress, as a frequent rather than an infreguent event.

Maybe then I would have the courage to join them

This is an interesting debate.

I’ve come to dislike the way people are classed as ‘male’ or ‘female’, and are then often expected or assumed to conform to certain thoughts or ways of being, regardless of the way they really are.

I’m biologically male, so grew up assuming ‘male’ is what I am. However, through my 32 years I’ve had several of the people closest to me – three of my closest friends, and my mother – suggesting I was quite female in attitude. That meant little to me – I’m a strict believer in equality and don’t believe there’s much difference between the two sexes anyway – but equally it demonstrates that they did have stereotypes about gender roles, to which I somehow wasn’t conforming. Not that they criticised me for this; indeed, they’ve generally been complementary about it.

Anyway, regarding the clothing issue specifically. From my teens I often liked the idea of dressing in ways more commonly seen as feminine. In my mid 20s I started varnishing my toenails, which was a private thing, but one day my housemate saw me with my socks off and burst out laughing. But there was never any negativity, and my best friend (and confidante) is now quite used to seeing me (in private) with varnished fingernails and wearing a skirt.

Going public has been a bigger hurdle . . . as I do worry about rejection and negativity. But in practice this has not happened. I haven’t worn ‘female’ attire in public many times yet, and have generally tended to do so in places where I know I won’t meet people who know me. But I recently met up with some colleagues from my voluntary work wearing an Indian sarwar suit, and that was fine, and when I went to ASDA this evening with a skirt, scarf and handbag I was unaware of unusual reactions (other than possibly one odd look).

So overall I think the fear is more within. . . maybe I’m lucky but I’ve never had any negative reaction at all to female attire, and I think most people will either tacitly accept or even appreciate. However, I do fear (justly or unjustly) that some people wouldn’t . . . eg (me being stereotypical here) gangs of local youths . . . and I also worry about putting off potential partners. So when all’s said and done I don’t think I’m ready to go 100% public yet . . . but I may do one day . . . and I do believe that most people would accept me.

Have you looked outside lately? Why would anyone want to risk freezing their nuts off?

Men’s fashion is generally practical: trousers and sensible shoes, or more specifically jeans and boots for me.

I like the fact that I can climb a tree without someone checking out my undies.

And I’m not sure that, given existing sexual inequality, dressing as a woman is significantly different than white people wearing blackface.

I don’t understand the problem people have with men wearing skirts. Apparently, the double standard, that so many women have fought to kill, is alive and well when it comes to clothing. Or is it that too many men have such fragile egos and are so afraid of what others may think of them should they dare to stray outside of the heavily fortified confines of their fashion box? I say it’s time for men in the U.S.A. to show the testicular fortitude God gave them and put on a skirt (knee length and pleated, please) and not give a damn what other people think. Why should only women have all the clothing comfort?

Shatterface.

I am not sure if I understand the link between white people impersonating a black person, and men wearing dresses.

Not ALL men who wear so called womens clothes are trying to look like a woman. They are simply enjoying something.

Also, nobody is suggesting that trouser and other so called mens clothing is not far more practical for a number of pastimes, including climbing trees.

Can you confirm if you are (or not) opposed to men wearing a dress? Its not for all men, after all, only those that like it.

If you are opposed, what is your main objection?

I’ve only just found this thread, after being directed here by another thread.I have to say that I find some of the cons totally illogical and, actually, tied into residual societal conditioning. I am a late middle aged man who is skirted most of the time here in Queensland Australia and have not yet encountered any adverse comments. I started wearing sarongs in the summer, which can get quite hot and humid, and found the comfort factor superb. The biggest problem with sarongs, however was the lack of pockets. I took the next logical step and started wearing skirts in sturdy material and masculine colours (i.e. denim, olive and khaki) with front closure, practical pockets and never anything too short! A kilt is 1 far too expensive and 2 I object to a small saddlebag (the sporran)flapping on the front of my legs.
I will recount the story told to me of a plumber in Darwin who wore sarongs on the job and was told by my friend that she looked up to see, clearly, that he was not wearing underpants. he just laughed when she told him he should have undies on! To close, with confidence on the part of the wearer, and the right choice of skirt, it is, in general, accepted by most.

Good for you Andrew.

Yes your right about “residual societal conditioning”. And I cant claim to be any different as I dont have the courage, (yet) to go out in clothing that I truly want to wear.

However, by choosing “masculine colours (i.e. denim, olive and khaki)”, dont you too feel pressured by those same constraints?

Why is, — and is–, denim a masculine coulour anyway?

Surely it’s not anymore since most women wear it as much a men these days. And why not choose a red, or a pink or a blue or yellow or even lavender, or whatever colour you like?

When did women gain ownership over all the colours of the rainbow except the ones that men are “allowed” to be seen in.

Like I said, I am in no position to throw stones, since I am still in the glasshouse, and haven’t yet stepped outside in a dress.

So good luck to you.

Thank you laurence, for your thoughts. I suppose I have to admit to bowing to pressure to blend in through my colour choice. I don’t feel at all comfortable with the thought of satins, velvets, floral patterning etc. This is despite the peacock fashions of past centuries in men!. I suppose another thought is to proceed slowly while acceptance of the idea sets in. We don’t want to be (but usually are) lumped in with the fetishists, transvestites and other of that ilk who, with their “style” do more harm to the idea of men in unbifurcated garments. BTW denim is an “invisible colour” in a skirt. I don’t know where you live but, screw up some courage and try it in a known safe area with civilised people.

Social forces not biology have placed people in what they wear. People reason by association and can seldom comprehend innate criteria. People are individuals, but in clothes, men are collectivized while women are urged to be individuals. Another reason men die sooner—repression. Horseback riding over many long centuries got men out of robes and skirts and into pants—the equestrian costume. Now that we use the horse very little for mobility—we are stuck with this horseback costume. Roman soldiers were highly regarded as excessively masculine—and wore skirts. So did the Macedonians under Alexander and they beat the trousered Persians. Men could benefit from extra space in their crotch, whereas trousers often bind that area and are uncomfortable. See examples of Greek dolls and Greek postcards on EBay to see that the modern Greeks still wear a ballet type skirt (with 400 pleats). See Apollo Dance on You Tube. Skirts & pants are sex neutral as no anatomical difference is involved—a waist and legs. Psychiatry fought women in pants NY Times May 27, 1876, page 6 editorial “A Curious Disease.” Conformity is SO unnecessary. I wear skirts and can still do a one arm chin up at age 54. DON’T question my masculinity.

60. Kelly Stevens

I’m a man who crossdresses and enjoys feminine gender expression. I do so because it makes me feel good. For some reason that I don’t understand, being able to walk, talk, dress, think, express, stand, relate–you name it–in the feminine manner makes me feel “whole” as though when I do so I am freed from constraints placed on my by society. If I could choose my gender I would choose to be female because it feels more natural for me but also because women are really more free than men in so many ways. But I truly believe that I would be as ill at ease by being forced into a feminine gender expression all the time as I am being forced into the male expression. This doesn’t have anything whatsoever to do with a “role”. If I were a woman I’d still choose my current Geek career and would probably have the same “masculine” recreational interests. I truly feel that I am fortunate to be able to move at will between genders, wear what I want, act like I want, etc. But I wish I could do so without having to assume the total role. Wouldn’t it be nice if I could wear a skirt to work as a man! Wouldn’t it be nice if I could enhance my appearance with a touch of color on my face, some blush, for example, on days when I look washed out or some eye liner when my eyes need a bit of help. A man who “passes” as a woman feels some inner satisfaction but gains no real freedom. The freedom only comes when men can dress as they please and still pass as real men, and women can dress as they please and still pass as real women.

For those of you who have offered a pep talk advising the rest of us to just be brave and put on a skirt this weekend and go to the Mall, I appreciate your encouragement. But when you tell me that you do it and no one really cares, or that your family hasn’t disowned you or that no one at work has fired you or that you don’t get beaten up by co-workers, I want to say that this does not signal their acceptance.of you wearing your skirt. They think you are “strange” at best and a sick pervert at worst. This forum has explored in great detail the subject from the perspective of the man wearing the skirt but has less often looks at the rest of society. As someone who passes as a woman until I have to engage in close up conversation such as with a cashier or waiter, I can tell you that many interact with me in a civil manner only because they are polite people be because they want to sale.

When I fail to “pass” at the Mall on occasion I can expect that some immature teenager will issue a cat call or let the world know that he is smart enough to have discovered this imposter. Less often, some adult, always a male, will make a passing comment. But never has a store clerk or waiter or anyone else in commerce refused my money. They just politely serve me even though some may disapprove of me greatly. I suspect that this is also the case with a man wearing a skirt in public. Just because no one becomes disorderly or commits assault on you doesn’t mean that they don’t care that you are wearing a skirt. Don’t confuse this as acceptance.

On occasion I am fortunate to be in a bar where I engage in conversation with another person and they learn that I am crossdressed. I found women to be curious and willing to ask questions but I found men to be borderline hostile until they see that the women are OK with it or that they see that the women will not judge them badly for asking questions. This is interesting because it tells me a great deal about these people. Women may not like to see a man dressed as a woman (or just wearing a skirt) they are willing to explore the concept and can often be won over to acceptance. Men are less free to explore gender. They feel a duty to be hostile until it is safe to be neutral toward me. They are all less hostile when they discover I am a successful professional who is married with grown children and even more successful when they know I don’t crossdress for sexual reasons,

When a man who is crossdressed is discovered to be crossdressed the conversation always goes toward “Are you gay?” This is the English language translation. This actually translates to “What the F**K is wrong with you?” It is assumed that a man who expresses any feminine characteristics has to have a screw loose, If he isn’t gay, he is a pervert. For most people to comprehend that one might want to wear a skirt for comfort is just not something they can relate to and even gays have difficulty understanding why a man would want to present as a woman.(although they are likely to have less of a hang up when a man wears a skirt and presents as a man in a skirt. Go figure!).

I agree with the writer who felt that men are considered to be “better” or “superior” and women “weaker” or “inferior”. For a man to want to give up this power that his gender gives him is not only “sick” but an affront to all men and this is where the fear of getting a beating is based. Somehow a man wearing a skirt is detracts from the power of all men and if everyone did this we might lose our superiority over women..

The only thing that will give men the freedom to wear a skirt is for a lot of men to wear skirts in public. This will happen when there is money in it for companies and when certain celebrities wear skirts often or a major TV show “gives its approval”. We saw this happen with man’s earrings and for a very short time nail color for young boys almost took hold. Had it not lost favor, men would be wearing nail polish by now. I remember when my best friend came to me truly distressed because his son had his ear pierced.

More curious than the issue of the skirt is the issue of “capris”. When I was young, teens wore “clam diggers”, i.e., what we now call capris, at the beach. They were very much like women’s capris and were not baggy or made with tons of pockets like some men’s short pants are today. But when I checked the internet to see if capris were sold for men, I encountered several fashion forums where women sometimes bitterly opposed men wearing capris as though the sky might fall if we did.

I hope my thoughts provide a different perspective and are useful to you.

Kelly Stevens wrote: “For those of you who have offered a pep talk advising the rest of us to just be brave and put on a skirt this weekend and go to the Mall, I appreciate your encouragement. ”

I think my earlier comment, #54, falls into this category. Fair enough, no harm, no foul.

My thinking is one that falls along the lines of familiarity, i.e. the more people see men in skirts or kilts in public, acting as they would typically, then the wider the range of acceptance will become. I see it as being no different than when women first started wearing trousers.

Soon, the fashion designers will pay attention and their business savvy will kick in and we’ll have skirts for men more widely available. Otherwise, if men are to only wear clandestinely, then skirt wearing will never catch on in the mainstream. FWIW

Men who want more clothing liberty should STOP identifying themselves as cross dressers as that’s a negative term. Neither sex is born wearing a trouser or a skirt so this is just arbitrary. Why are women not called cross dressers when they wear slacks? 2 reasons—a majority element cannot be persecuted, and this is a term of persecution, as it suggests the person is wearing something belonging exclusively to the other sex and; women aren’t called cross dressers because society isn’t trying to forbid them CHOICES. This repressive terminology started in 1910 when a German psychiatrist, Magnus Hirschfeld, coined the restrictive term “transvestism.” Both sexes have worn both styles across history, and rarely in an impersonation context. Neither style is an anatomical gender difference. See, psychiatry is about nothing other than SOCIAL CONTROL and ENFORCING whatever the social conformity happens to be. As modern day Inquisitors they function to validate majority prejudice and intolerance. However, any man wearing a bra, or a dress styled with a bra bodice, SHOULD call himself a cross dresser, because of the anatomical difference. No skirt, ruffle, floral design, bright color, metallic, etc. can constitute any man as a transvestite. Look at the English Beefeater costume—the Greek Evzone costume—the Egyptian Dervish skirts—and the Bhutanese dancers. Only reason psychiatry stops short of slandering these men as cross dressers is they would then be committing an obvious cultural genocide. However WHY should men be limited to some established, recognized traditional costume? Is there any range of style society is telling women they should restrict themselves into? Sex differences well adequate for differentiation will remain—voice—build—facial hair on men.

None of us are helped in a positive way by those suffering from a mental illness known as gender dysphoria. These individuals hopefully may improve under the care of a psychiatrist. Such an individual may well be unable to relate to members of the opposite sex in a meaningful manner. For a man to wish to appear as a woman is about as inappropriate as a man who may wish to appear as a leopard or monkey. Insecurity. Immaturity. Still has his virginity?

Wearing a skirt has absolutely nothing to do with “presenting as a woman” since virtually all women wear pants except for rare occasions. Although I regularly wear a skirt it will be a very cold day in hell before I would be mistaken for being female. Likewise my wife as well as our daughters would never be mistaken for being a man even though it has been years since one of them has worn a dress or a skirt.

I can honestly say that there isn’t a barrier to clothing choices. You perceive there to be such a barrier, therefore it exists for you in your mind as a determinate of your behavior. On most trips I am accompanied by my dear wife, a very feminine lady. I have never heard of any whispers regarding being homosexual, gay or being a fagot. Neither has my wife.

If you are a man who really wants to be a female I might suggest some local cowboy bars where the needed surgery may be performed with any monetary cost for a physician. A few of those cross-dressed types have even managed to be at the wrong end of the gun barrel out here in the western USA. We just don’t dig trying to be something that you aren’t and that definitely includes that salsa from New Jersey.

So get your skirt out of your closet. Or your wife’s closet since she probably hasn’t worn it in years anyhow. Wear it. Make like a man. Macho. That skirt isn’t going to eat your testicles. Your biggest fear is just your perception of fear itself. Don’t be a whimp.

So it seems many of us recognise our lack of “power” in respect of being able to truly dress FREELY in how we would choose to dress.

I too have reached the conclusion that it is only likely to gain acceptance if we dress as we choose en masse.

But how to arrange that.

There are (at least in the UK), meeting places for guys that like to wear a dress or makeup etc, but they are mostly private affairs and largely described as TV clubs or Crossdresser clubs. And there is the Beaumont Society, but wouldn’t it be great if there were some great convention or gathering where hundreds and perhaps thousands of men would attend, in full public view say every few months or even more regularly. Just guys in skirts and tops, dresses, maybe makeup maybe not, maybe earings and other accessories and maybe not, maybe boots maybe high heels.

A kind of Pride march perhaps. not based on sexuality or gender, just freedom in clothes choice.

Many writers here seem to be from the USA, I wonder is it more liberated there than in Europe?

Anyway, its great to read so many lucid and in depth comments here.

It would also be interesting to see some more input from women. I would like to hear their viewpoints and objections.

Without the eventual acceptance by men, of women, in pretty much anythng they want to wear or do for that matter, wouldn’t women still also be in the closet, so to speak?

NO! not any trimmings. All this bloke wishes is to wear a practical and comfortable unbifurcated garment. There is no wish at all to pass as ANYTHING other than the male human being I was born as, and am comfortable being. That “transvete” is how we are labeled by the loud and ignorant is sad and maddeningly frustrating. Those who try to pass as women-most often badly- do more harm to the idea of ordinary people wearing whatever we wish ( within the bounds of decency) Anyhow, with a grey beard, I’d have no hope as a tranny.

Come on Dave, there are no “mental illnesses.” None—nonexistent. Please read “The Myth Of Mental Illness”. You say there is no barrier to clothing choices. In some ultimate sense that might be partially true. However there’s still the stigma created by the fanatical mental health cult and their restrictive labels. I was recently called a cross dresser at a Unitarian Church. For wearing a skirt. I handed the fellow several items from the New York Times, which he refused to read. They have their dogma, and have no interest in viewing any information to contradict it. As far as placing oneself under the care of a psychiatrist—you can’t be serious? The best thing anyone could say to any psychiatrist is—“Leave us alone—can’t you see we’re busy?”

They have no net positive contribution to make to society.

It seems there are two cases to be made in terms of men wearing skirts. There are those who still wish to maintain strict gender expression and roles but simply have certain articles of clothing currently mandated only for female use expanded for male use. The second argument I think is one based on gender expression – namely that some individuals are most comfortable presenting as something inbetween “male” and “female” and wish the rights to express themselves how they want (much the same as women currently enjoy). I am in the second group – as I think that the fact that men can’t wear skirts is more a symptom of a problem, rather than the problem itself.

Some of the comments in this thread make me cringe a bit, because some of the same prejudice and stereotypes that prevent men from wearing skirts in the first place and that we all complain about, are levied against those who would choose to wear a skirt for any other reason than it’s practicality. It’s true, there are people out there that dress inappropriately in public (both male and female) – however, the vast majority of people out there simply wish the right to present along the gender spectrum how they want (tastefully).

Clothing is worn for more than just it’s practicality, and men have many items of clothing that are impractical such as neckties. When a woman wears a necktie people don’t gross out (except for a tiny minority who feel it an abomination) or stereotype or rail against them as having a desire to change sex. Women don’t even feel the need to say things like “I am NOT trying to appear as male” because there’s no reason to defend it at all. I wish the same was true for men. If I wear a skirt, and present as somewhere between male and female – I wish people would just show the exact same lack of interest (you could call it ‘acceptance’, but it’s beyond that since it’s truly no big deal) we give to females.

More than just a stigma against wearing skirts themselves, I wish there wasn’t a stigma against males varying their gender expression – much as females enjoy today. Rather than put down males who dress across the gender spectrum (even those who dress to appear female in varying degrees), I think it’s more appropriate (and less hypocritical) for us to accept ANYONE who challenges the gender establishment. I think that the majority of these brave souls make life easier, not harder for those of us who wish more gender freedom. It it OUR fault for not adding to the gender spectrum, not theirs – because they are at least living what they believe. Most of us that would make fun and ridicule these brave transgendered humans saying that they”aren’t real men” are ourselves holed up in our apartments like sissies (pardon the term). So I find some of the ridicule a bit ironic.

Ultimately I am more than a just a guy who wants to wear a skirt. Some days I don’t feel like dressing 100% “masculine”. To put it simply, I want to be able to wear a pink skirt if I feel like it too – or any other article of clothing. ANY. But, just like most women who wear a suit and tie, I’m not doing it for sexual attraction (as if the only purpose for skirts and certain colors is sexual) – I’m doing it for the same reason she is. Because I feel like it.

It would be quite rational if people would cease using terms like “transgendered” to describe a wish to wear skirts. Take a historical survey. Look at all the artworks in major museums of the world, sculptures, and motion pictures depicting historical costumes worn by masculine men AS MEN. Look at the neck ruffs worn by princes and nobility in medieval times (as in the English Beefeaters today). Look at the Vatican Swiss Guards as painted by Raphael. Consider the “rhinegraves” or “petticoat breeches” worn by upper class males in the 17th century. Men in ballet wore a “tonnelet,” a stylized takeoff on Roman soldier costumes. The tonnelet became the predecessor to the tutu worn by women. Defining masculinity as plaid and drab and nonexpressive has no roots in biology. It traces to a conflux of historical social forces including The Great Masculine Renunciation (in clothing expression) caused by the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution with over 330,000 deaths, many on Madame Guillotine. Wrath was directed against the upper classes including men in fancy clothes. It became politically unpopular afterwards for men to wear fancy clothes. This affected all of Europe and far beyond. Psychiatry would have us know nothing of these historical causes, and wishes us to believe their trash talk as to how male chromosomes determine men wear plain clothes. Nonsense. Puritanism also took its toll on men’s expression. They hated all colors other than black, gray and dark brown. The Industrial Revolution added force to theses other causes. The main cause, as always, was horseback riding that placed men into pants. That cause had been at work for many centuries previous to the other causes.

These men I mention whose likenesses can be found in major museums were wearing clothes that today would be considered effeminate. However, that is mere associative reasoning—a child’s criteria—and they would certainly have disavowed any suggestion that they were “transgendered.” Current conceptions of masculinity are severely flawed and need to be discredited as they stand in the way of men having basic liberties. Treat men as individuals in attire the same way as women are treated. Allow men choices. Toss terminology like “transgendered” onto the scrap heap where it belongs (except only in cases where someone really wants sex change surgery.)

Sorry for the typo where “plaid and drab” appeared. It should read “plain and drab.”

Plaid is seldom drab.

Hi Charles,

I really appreciate your informative posts, and I don’t want to by any means take away from the point you make. One minor comment though:

I think you’re confusing “transgendered” with “transexual”. The distinction being the same as between one’s “sex” versus one’s “gender”.

Transgendered individuals typically reject or seek to redefine “male” or “female” roles as imposed by society. Transgendered women for example could be those who prefer to present in attire and traits that society identifies as on the “masculine” side, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they want male anatomy. Males are not afforded such freedom (as you point out.), and as soon as a man puts on a skirt he is deemed “transgendered” (which may be an appropriate definition since the man is defying traditional gender roles, but unfortunately has a negative connotation since the same restrictions aren’t applied to women). Transexuals on the other hand are those who seek to change their physical sex and live entirely as the opposite sex.

Often these two groups are lumped into the same category, but they are actually quite different. Many women would fit under the category of “transgendered” in that they can present and act across a fairly wide gender spectrum whereas any man who would attempt the same would end up on that heap you talk about.

I would identify myself as transgendered. I have no interest in having a sex change, and am heterosexual. My interest in wearing a skirt lies in the fact that I consider myself somewhere towards the middle of the gender spectrum and wish as a man I could freely present as such – like many of my female friends can.

While many readers may not wish to be identified as “transgendered” because of the negative connotations imposed by society, they should know that they likely share many of the same philosophical ideas as transgendered people – and should consider TG folks their friends on this issue.

I’m honestly confused. I have seldom, perhaps never, seen a woman present across the gender spectrum. It may well be delusional to even imagine the presence of a gender spectrum. Yes, mental illness does exist. Being in denial is not a step down the road toward recovery any more so than an alcoholic who refuses to seek professional help as a result of his/her addiction.

I have seen women wear just about anything that you could imagine, and some I can’t believe that I have seen. All of these women that I have seen presented as a woman. They didn’t disguise their voice or attempt to hide their bust. They were 100% female whether it was a grubby pair of overalls best suited for cleaning manure from a cow barn or a white lace dress with expensive jewelry. No gender spectrum. Just all woman.

Now there are the mentally questionable guys with their feminine looking wigs, quivering voices, rags stuffed into a bra and even shoving a tampon up their rectum. Makes one wish to vomit. Please never confuse that with the desire to wear a variety of clothing as do most women while presenting always as a real 100% genuine female. In the same manner I choose between a skirt or pants just as would a woman. I’m always at the 100% male mark on the gender spectrum regardless of my garment selections. Being 100% male in my presentation has never stopped me from wearing a pink miniskirt with a white lace blouse. I still talked & acted like the real 100% male that I have always been & always will be. No tampon up my butt. No trying to make like someone that I’m not. As I have stated before, looking like an escapee from a mental hospital certainly does noting for clothing freedom. Women never looked like a nut case when they began to wear pants. I have no issues with my wife wearing whatsoever she pleases or any of our daughters. I would have a very serious issue if she were to attempt to represent herself as a man in public. I’m absolutely certain she would go ballistic if I were to attempt to pass as a woman in public. I am always a man. Clothing freedom does not require an expression or symptom of gender dysphobia.

Think about it. Follow the ladies path to total clothing freedom without the psychological baggage. Unless you want to replace the village idiot as being the joke of the town.

The use of panties does not make one gay, or mad, in fact some clothing like satin, silk and lace are energetic, they give static and like acupuncture heal and promote better libido ie sex, comfort and performance is important, helps the couple bond and solves infertility, female clothing is energy clothing , designed to maximize her energy and improve her aura, when used correctly can have the same effect on anyone with low self esteem, poor circulation and physic, long gowns , baby dolls and , camisoles can be healing, people with poor nerve muscle coordination are helped with static from satin or silk gowns, energy is improved with lace tops and hose.
One lady garment that is a problem is the bra, damages muscles, blocks lymph’s and nerve signals, even ladies need to have a correct fitting and get out of them as soon as humanly possible, for most don’t use if at home.
So clothing can be healing and a stress buster, does not make one gay, or changes your sexuality. Make up for men and most women is a noo no as most are toxics, see ingredients on packs.
skirts Skirts and long gowns were originally associated with men, this allows the genitiallia to remain at a lower temperature, the use of lace and mesh panties is good for guys as it allows are flow around the testicles, this helps sperm production and libido, due to work and the evolution of the type of work med did they moved into pants and gender lines were blurred from roman times to today, in eastern culture and some American , the use of robes and skirts is seen as beneficial, look at birth rates.
Therefore men are better in skirts and lace panties as it improves spermatogenisis and libido,

http://www.szasz.com/ has commentary as to the flaws of the concept of mental illness, now often termed “disorder.” Who is to say whose thinking is ordered, and whose is disordered? Why, only the psychiatrist! Talk about gaining ascendancy over all around you! How often have you heard about any psychiatrist having any mental “illness?” Nearly never. And you usually won’t. When they alone are the “qualified” diagnosticians, they sure as hell aren’t going to diagnose it in themselves, nor in any of their peers with whom they are on favorable terms. Have any cardiologists died of heart disease? Many. Have any audiologists lost hearing? Many. Have any gerontologists aged? All of them, other than those who had fatal accidents. If a podiatrist drops an anvil on his foot, he has acquired a foot disorder. How does a “mental health professional” acquire any mental “illness?” THEY DON’T. This puts the lie to their highly parroted slogan, “Mental illness is like any other illness.” No it is not—in real medicine, there are real diseases, such as hardening of the arteries. In psychiatry it’s just name calling as a strategy to STOP some nonconformist from being different. They also function as hit men for the state, as in the former Soviet Russia to suppress political dissidents. Psychiatry, being fraud, is not and can never be medicine. I see this board has a policy against racist comments. So I point out that the American Psychiatric Association still maintains an image of Benjamin Rush, a Revolutionary wartime personality, considered the father of American psychiatry, in its journal and seal. Rush believed that Blacks skin color was caused by “disease.” They refuse to repudiate Benjamin Rush. While the KKK gets attention as racists, the APA has been tragically overlooked. UNTIL NOW. And they foment worry over men in skirts.

Hi Dave, (and anybody else who is less than complimentary to those that wish to be more like women)

With respect;

You Said, “None of us are helped in a positive way by those suffering from a mental illness known as gender dysphoria. These individuals hopefully may improve under the care of a psychiatrist. Such an individual may well be unable to relate to members of the opposite sex in a meaningful manner. For a man to wish to appear as a woman is about as inappropriate as a man who may wish to appear as a leopard or monkey. Insecurity. ” Amongst things.

Now the way you write sugeests that you are an educated man. So I am frankly amazed at your lack of awareness of gender.

A man wishing to look like a woman is entirely different to a man wishing to look like a leopard, an entirely different species, now he might well be mentally ill, or maybe he just likes leopards. 🙂

Also I would like to know how you define 100 percent male. I would like to hear your definition.

Are you aware that there is no scientific test to define either male or female?

You are not male just because you were born with External genitalia, and not female because you were not.

Are you aware that the head of your penis is in fact the same flesh that would be your clitoris had you been given eostrogen instead of testosterone as a fetus? And that with sufficient eostrogen you could develope perfectly normal breasts, and with progesterone even lactate?

Yor nipples are just the same as your wifes nipples, did you know that? They are simply reduntant on you as you are “male”.

Sorry you are wrong. Someone who feels themselves to be more like a female than their male body would suggest them to be, is not mentally ill. Differences in brain structure have now been identified in transgendered peoples, be they female to male or male to female.

Far from enough is understood about human gender, sexuality or sex(as in the assigning of sex as an identity).

We have limited words. Only male and female to describe infinitley more complex beings than those two words can begin to describe.

Transgender is also simply another word that attempts to encompass a group of people who feel different to the way that they are expected to behave according societies current narrow norms.

Its not a perfect word describing a fully understood subject.

The whole issue of clothing has become entwined in this narrow view of how we as humans are supposed to behave.

Of course, there is NO DOUBT, that some people wishing to express themselves as a woman, will desire to wear a dress, makeup, lace etc, i.e all the things that are currently only acceptable for women. Such people wish to appear and feel as “feminine” as they can.

Is it surprisng since only women are deemed suitable for such clothing, that someone who feels themselves to be a woman, should want to appear in so called womens clothes?

Would anybody here deny them that right?

Others, like yourself, simply like to wear the things you describe just because you like them.

And you should have that right.

I dont understand why you are so hostile to those of us that might feel less “masculine” than how you describe yourself to be.

Please also describe and define masciline behaviour.

Personally I like to ski (very fast, climb trees, and volcanoes, fight occasionally, drink beer, swear, fart, smell and arrange flowers, sew, sometimes cry watching an emotional scene in a film, like to wear earings, sweet smelling perfume (united colours of beniton HOT), wear a long dress, silk lacy underwear, ride motorbikes, ———— well the list is endless.

Oh and by the way, I am not Homosexual, although I would not be ashamed if I was.

I have no idea of what is feminine and what is masculine. Its all just human behaviour to me. That may sound like a stupid comment, but the older I have got, the more I have experienced and experimented, the less i am able to say that I am exclusively masculine, or feminine for that matter.

But as regards transexuals, they definitley feel themselves to be minds occupying the wrong body, and medical science is rapidly discovering that they are NOT deluded.

Nature is not a perfect machine for the manufacture of humans. It doesn’t work to a blueprint.

If on the other hand you believe in creation by god, then you would have to conclude that the god in question made a bit of a mess of it.

Without all the ridiculous rules and restrictions place on all of us, by the cultures and societies we live in, there would be much more likelihood that those born with minds that dont align with their bodies would be able to accept themselves by freedom of expression, since they would not be called mentally ill.

Coming back to clothes, if we treat them as a seperate issue, if that is indeed possible, surely it should simply be EVERY PERSONS right to wear anything they want from the vast array of clothing, accessories, perfumes etc that exist.

And if somebody wishes they had breast in order to fill the bra they like to wear, and stuffs them with false ones, and someone likes bum and hip pads to give the impression that they are shapelier than they really are —— is that so very different to the guy that combes his hair over his bald spot to conceal the fact that he is loosing his hair? Whos he trying to kid, and who am I to criticise him?

And should we win the right and freedom to wear whatever we wish at the expense of others rights, just because our feelings and reasons are not the same as theirs ?

This a great debate, lets keep it going and be more open minded. I am learning a lot from it.

You Said, “None of us are helped in a positive way by those suffering from a mental illness known as gender dysphoria. These individuals hopefully may improve under the care of a psychiatrist. Such an individual may well be unable to relate to members of the opposite sex in a meaningful manner. For a man to wish to appear as a woman is about as inappropriate as a man who may wish to appear as a leopard or monkey. Insecurity.

TYPO should read ” Amongst OTHER things.

Maybe it is usefull to look for the history on the subject that people are not supposed to wear the attire of the other gender. This goes way back to the bible and may be considered as codification of existing law in 300 AD. See Deutrimonium. Reason was that croocks would dress as women and could not be found. As people became less willing to go to church, which used to be the channel through which new laws were announced, a new channel for the thought had to be found, but the reason for the rule was lost underway. The new means for indicating that wearing clothing of the other gender is not done, was by means of psychology. In the late 19th century a psychiatrist (Binet) in Nice indicated that such an activity was to be considered as deviant whilst at that time in rural areas it was still common to see men in skirt-like apparel. Jung later propegated this thought further. Strangely enough, if you look nowadays at what is presented as men’s fashion ( http://www.vogue.co.uk) and look at what the women are wearing in the streets, the question could be raised as to whom is wrong, aren’t it the women who are actually using a double standard?

Looking further back, in the ancient greek, it was customary that for theater men wopuld dress fully as if the y would be women to act out the feminim parts. Look at the attire in the old Rome, is there much of a difference between the attire of men and women?

Isn’t the basic problem that a double standard is used and many lack the historical knowlegde?

a strange anology: the kitchen is in general considered the domain of women, but who are most of the time the real chef’s?

An interesting point that hasn’t been mentioned here is the recent wide diversification of kilts. Although I still wear a traditional one, you’re no longer confined to tartan wool – there are all sorts of colours, patterns and materials out there. I’ve even seen leather kilts.

The kilt, of course, is a garment designed for men, just as most women’s trousers are designed for women. Wearing the opposite sex’s clothes is a separate issue: it remains frowned upon for men, while women get away with it in a casual context (the question above about whether women would turn up to work in men’s clothes missed the issue of *why* they might not: the fact is it simply wouldn’t look smart enough – which is a lot less serious than the reaction a man would get for turning up to work in a dress).

I like the fact that my kilt remains out of the ordinary (I’ve lived south of the Border for years now). In particular, I like the attention I get from women when wearing it. More men in skirts would, for me, mean competition!

We need to distance ourselves from the restrictive concept that a man can only wear a skirt as many say, “that was designed or intended for a man,” like a kilt. I did a long study of the Balkan (Albanian/Greek) fustanella. While it does the same thing as a kilt—it hangs from the waist and wraps the legs together as does any skirt—its appearance and design is very different from a kilt. Considering other skirt styles still in use today in Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Tahiti, Hawaii, Indonesia, and across the Arab world with robes and Dervish skirts—and all the many different skirts historically worn by men—there is NO basis to attempt to confine skirts worn by men into some narrow range. Face it, compared to other skirt styles, kilts are passe. What would explorers have said if someone had told them, “Hey, go exploring this vast world all you want, just as long as you don’t venture anywhere outside of Scotland.” That Scots wear kilts is no matter on their part of interest in freedom of dress, except as it applies to their fixed, rigid, changeless, standardized hereditary costume. Tradition, nationalism, and family association is their motivation, not the broader motive of freedom of style.

Charles, just where did I say that kilts were the only form of skirts men should wear? I merely drew attention to the difference between a kilt – or, for that matter, any of the skirts you mention, which are also traditionally accepted as male dress – and a man wearing a skirt *specifically* designed for a woman. And there’s nothing wrong with that either, but it IS a different case.

> That Scots wear kilts is no matter on their part of interest in freedom of dress, except as it applies to their fixed, rigid, changeless, standardized hereditary costume.

Did you even read my post, or just see the word “kilt” and decide to reply to that? The diversification of kilt styles which I mentioned in my first paragraph pretty much disproves this point. The kilt today is anything but rigid and changeless. There are velvet kilts, PVC kilts, camouflage-pattern kilts, pinstripe kilts. I happen to prefer the old-fashioned version for myself, but that’s just a matter of personal style.

A kilt is a type of a skirt. All garments from the waist down either have one leg opening or two leg openings. Skirts or pants. Simple. Women can’t even separate a skirt from pants in some circumstances. A scooter skirt & a skort are actually a type of pants since the right leg goes into a different opening than the left leg just as in any other type of pants. You can call it a kilt if you like but it won’t change anyone’s perception that it isn’t a skirt, at least out here in the western USA. The designed for a man or designed for a woman are simply the result of defective thinking. No skirt has gonads that I’ve ever seen. It’s the waist size, the length to the hemline and the amount of flair or pleating that is significant. In other words, it’s a miniskirt, an A-line skirt, a pencil skirt, a tulip skirt, a pleated skirt, a bubble skirt, etc.

If it fits, wear it. Quit wasting your time trying to find testicles somewhere inside so that you can call it a kilt. To everyone else it’s still a skirt. Like I said, if it fits, wear it!

Hey Colquitto—I made NO references to anything you said. I was speaking generally in regard to those I’ve encountered personally and on the web. Many HAVE insisted a man can’t wear any pants alternative other than a kilt. I referred to the traditional kilt worn by clan groups. Comment #81 by Dave—I see it the same way. Those points are dead-on bullseye.

Main point I want to make about kilts—of any type, traditional or modified modern, is that someone wants us to be stuck with something than can be termed a kilt. NO, I want a skirt. What the Greeks wear is a skirt. Kilts I’m weary hearing about. However, had they been pleated across the front also, my view would be far more positive. These types tell me the flat front, plus pinning and buckling to the right, is what makes it “male.” Come on, the location of a pleat has no correlation to any specific sexual anatomy.

I agree that any type of kilt IS the “thin edge of the wedge,” but the wedge is already “IN” so to speak, and frontiers need to be expanded. Cheers to all kilt wearers. Triple cheers to all SKIRT wearers. We gotta throw off the restrictions on us, guys.

While i agree that pants for women are designed for women, I ask the question why are they designed for women.
This question is in lite of the fact that 10+ years ago several women were thrown in prison for wearing pants.
Did katheryn hepburn were pants cut for a female?
Did all those ladies that wore pants when their usbands were fighting in WWII?
How about in the early 50s?
Why were their pants not cut for women? Did it have something to do with no market yet for the female pants?
The ladies started wearing men jeans, along with putting up with all the flack, stares, shock etc, that us men in the unbifardated rebellion put up.
If you look world wide there are as many men that wear skirt like outfits as there are men that wear pants. ie the national Greek uniform, most of West and Southern Africa, Egypt, Malaysia Arab, just to name a few. Alot of the eastern men that were dress or skirt like clothing do for protection from the heat and the sun.

I for one would like to see a unisex shirt/dress peice of clothing be created – oh wait isn’t it called a Kurta?

National dress takes many forms all across the world. It doesnt matter.

What does matter is that certain kinds of clothing is considered taboo for men.

No kind of clothing, accessory, or makeup should be restricted on the basis of assigned sex at birth, or on gender identity.

It is a fact that in most societies in the world today, women are NOT subject to those retriictions.

Yes, there are trousers designed exclusively with a females shape in mind. I have no problem with that.

I am a slim male, and am fortunate that I am able to wear a large selection of womens clothing.

However, certain styles of dresses, are shorter in the torso, than is comfortable for me, and also does not give the appearance I would like to achieve.

A woman wouldnt wear a dress that did not fit her properly, so why should a man?

If we all wear oversized or baggy clothes, than fit is not an issue.

But take a tight dress or very fitted skirt for example.

A tight skirt or dress, reveals the bulge of ones penis and testicles, unless one is able to tuck it all away between ones legs. I prefer not to.

So SOME types of dresses and skirts would be best designed exclusively for men.

Many women if they choose to, can buy mens jeans for example and wear them just as they are.

But women generally are far more concious of fit. Hence the industry caters for women by designing for womens shapes.

All that I would ask is that the clothing be designed for mens shape.

Take blouses for example, where if I but a size that fits across my shoulders and chest, it is not a good fit elsewhere and often the sleeves and body are too short.

Certain styles of dresses are too big across my narrow hips, whilst fitting me in the chest.

So in that strict sense one can argue that there are clothes for men and clothes for women and thats ok.

Go into any levis store, and what do you see?

Mens levis and womens levis. Mens 501’s and womens 501’s.

I want to go into a shop and see Mens dresses skirts etc, and womens dresses and skirts etc.

Some would be unifit and some specifically male fit and female fit.

Just as you get large and petite sizes for women, so you could have diferent shapes whilst preserving the style.

Perfume is for both, jewellery is for both makeup id for both, with perhaps the difference being in the chemicals used to suit male skin types.

Also some lingerie needs to be designed with the shape of the male in mind. I love fronch knickers, but as we all know there is no support for a male. Of course that support is not needed for a female. So we need French knickers for men and french knickers for women.

Everything I have read here and elswhere, has convinced me completely that the answer to the question at the top of this discussion of “Why don’t men wear skirts?” can be answered as follows.

There is no JUSTIFIABLE reason why Men dont wear skirts.

But there are reasons. They are, outdated thinking, predjudice, misunderstanding, fear, embarassment, and I no doubt many others.

So perhaps the question we should all ask ourselves is how do we change it?

Individuals have little impact, perhaps we need a mans movement as voiciferous as the womens was in the 60’s when they burned their bras to campaign for freedoms long denied to them by men.

However, I dont believe that it is only women that are the barrier to mens clothing freedom. Many men are equally or more opposed to men in skirts. We have to tackle their thinking too.

85. Holly Short

That is like right on. Males think its degrading them and they think they’re the better sex. And if they are it will not last long. The deceleration says that all people have the same rights, specifically to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That we are all equal. I notice how people treat me. Just because i’m female doesnt mean i cant be as good or better that any boy. theyre all “impress the girls… blah blah blah” Why arent the girls trying to impress the guys the same way.
It doesnt matter what they think because when we die we’ll all be equal and we’re all going to the same place. And im going to find out where that is. Because im sick of pretending to be someone else and not getting any effect because im a girl.

WELL I’VE HAD IT! ~~~ im going to commit suicide and let me tell you by golly those rates for male vs female arent equal either
and could someone email me and tell me why i should wear pads or tampons please because i really dont see the point.
hollyfly13@gmail.com

Holly. If you kill yourself you won’t be able to help change the way things are. All of us here are sick of arbitrary gender roles.

Hi Holly,

I hope for your happiness that you are not serious. Stick around and discover that there are plenty of people that wouldnt treat you the way you describe.

And yes, I see no reason that some females cant be as good or better than her male colleagues at ANYTHING.

Since physical great strength is no longer needed or required as a matter of legislation in most roles thesedays, anyone should considered for any role as long they have the skills knowledge and ambition.

But how do you feel about clothes holly?

I realize i was wrong. so i was completely off topic. Well, good riddance! I told the truth for the first time in months and i was wrong to. now i feel like such an idiot…

and i dont care! i would not care if the entire world exploded! I wouldnt care if you fell off a building!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

?WHATEVER?

oh yeah… TY Lawrence. Good luck with your mission to make all people equal.
And if u care so much then why dont all of you get together… i mean y not it’ll be easier for all of u to talk with each other… why does it matter so much anyway… just find out whos over 18 and what state their in and get a central meeting place… so simple… why do i bother…lol

i was serious about killing myself and why do i continue wasting time on this website
🙂

Whatever floats your boat holly 🙂

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

@ Charles:

> Hey Colquitto—I made NO references to anything you said.

Sorry, I just assumed a post immediately following mine, addressing the same area of the subject as mine, and containing a near-quote from mine, was intended as a reply to mine. Was that so unreasonable? And what’s with the “Colquitto” spelling? If it’s meant to be an insult I don’t get it.

Everything in your second post AFTER the above sentence, I absolutely agree with, and more power to you.


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  1. sunny hundal

    @chiller @fionalaird we ran something like this years ago http://t.co/gWTwkTTI





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