Comments on: Why concentrating on scandal misses the point http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/ Left-wing news, opinion and activism Wed, 02 Dec 2015 19:06:04 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.11 By: ashok http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4688 Wed, 06 Feb 2008 06:50:37 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4688 @ DK: What exactly is a minarchist?

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By: Devil's Kitchen http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4652 Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:06:46 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4652 Douglas,

I’m sorry, I do have better things to do than eagerly and constantly refresh this page to see if anyone has replied to something I’ve said. Re: global warming, I’m not going to rise to that bait except to say, at least I go and look for evidence, rather than supping up what anyone wants to feed to me.

Ashok, I don’t think that anarcho-capitalism would work (or not well), which is why I am a minarchist and not an anarchist. I think that one has to have a massive faith in the inherent sensible and decent nature of humans to be an anarchist, and I don’t have that.

DK

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By: douglas clark http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4649 Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:04:08 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4649 This would be the same little DK that tries to come across as sensible, would it? The same little DK that is in denial about Global Warming? The self same person that cannot reply to a question, viz:

Just a question for DK: Under what conditions, do you think, anarcho-capitalism is feasible?

You’ve got to love him.

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By: R. Richard Schweitzer http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4641 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:30:01 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4641 Consider what “Policies” really are.

Consdier how “Policies” are determined.

Consider the effects of those who participate in determining “Policies.”

Consider those ingredients of the “Policies” cake.

Eat bread!

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By: thomas http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4639 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:03:31 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4639 Democracy in its full diversity also includes scutineers in their full diversity with their full range of perspectives, so since GF has his built his niche he is welcome to keep it, so long as he stays in it.

GF is a player in the game, but when he starts to dig away at the rest of our democratic infrastructure he oversteps his mark and is imposing a world-view based on the self-fulfilling prophecies of his own political philosophy and is trying to assume a role bigger than that which he is competent or capable of completing, thereby contradicting any claim of gentlemanly adherence to fair play.

I take it that he’s just conflicted by his jealousy of the reach and influence of the journalistic commentators in the established and accredited MSM, while angst-ridden by his inability to work under an editor with the attendant strictures of professionalism that he’d be forced to comply with.

His fun is a practical outlet for his frustrations (which contributes to the overall mix), but it’d be a different blog with a very different audience if he actually advocated something positive.

GF: one of the best amateurs, but still an amateur.

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By: ashok http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4633 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:26:00 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4633 From DK, above:

“From my perspective — in other words, that of a free-market, minarchist libertarian — this is precisely what is wrong with politics: politicians should be able to do so little that they can do no harm with their policies. You, no doubt, would argue that then they could do no “good”. In return, of course, I would argue that they never have.”

Just a question for DK: Under what conditions, do you think, anarcho-capitalism is feasible?

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By: Devil's Kitchen http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4630 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:26:03 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4630

He does it he says because he has a ’suspicious mind’ and because the louder you hear a politician bleat about how normal they are, the closer you should clutch your wallet.

No, Guido doesn’t say that at all. He said [emphasis mine]

… The louder they claim it is because they “want to make a difference”, the tighter you should grip your wallet.

He is quite correct, because the main way that politicians seem to think that they can make a difference is by spending more money. Since the state — and, by extension, politicians — has no money but what it takes from us in taxes, a politician promising to do good usually means to take more cash from our wallets.

Because its my case that even if politicians are as venal and horrible as Fawkes says, that doesn’t matter so much compared to the harm that they do with their policies.

From my perspective — in other words, that of a free-market, minarchist libertarian — this is precisely what is wrong with politics: politicians should be able to do so little that they can do no harm with their policies. You, no doubt, would argue that then they could do no “good”. In return, of course, I would argue that they never have.

But, of course, I am far closer to Guido’s politics than you are (else you wouldn’t be writing here). Guido has, by the way, replied to you.

DK

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By: DonaldS http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4616 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:33:44 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4616 All well and good, and I guess I largely agree (with the post), but what I don’t get is *why on earth* we’re the slightest bit interested in what Guido’s up to. He’s a twat, an irritating one at that, but him and his mate Iain are largely preaching to their little set of the converted. Let them in peace. They don’t enter my radar by the clever device of just not pointing my browser their way.

The fact that, over at LabourHome, they’re even *debating* whether he should be on their sidebar or not is equally amusing: *of course he shouldn’t*. Just ignore him.

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By: Garbo http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4607 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:09:42 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4607 The most sensible thing I have read in the blogosphere for some time. Thank you.

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By: Normal Mouth http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4606 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:01:53 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4606 An interesting post.

Like many people, I regard GF as a odious prat with a massively exaggerated sense of his own importance/influence and a rather tedious paranoia about the mainstream media.

But please don’t fall into the trap of decrying the scandal sheet. It’s been around since pretty much the dawn of the printing press and is an important part of a fully functioning polity (and, more latterly, democracy).

The analytical stuff is important too, hence the place of pamphleteers (think Paine and Burke) in our discourse. But twe should have both of these forms of scrutiny, rather than be obliged to choose.

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By: ashok http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4605 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:07:22 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4605 Henry, yours is a good post. Thanks for sharing this.

I wish you had raised more explicitly the question of why it is we want to believe those we disagree with are corrupt. On the surface, it seems easy – if people are wrong, well, they must be morally wrong!

But that’s not how we conduct ourselves in private life – au contraire, we usually have friends whose values diverge sharply from ours.

There’s something about the public sphere, something about the way ideologies are mass marketed nowadays, that’s giving credibility to Guido’s sort of claim, where anything that goes wrong is criminality, so if you eliminate the criminality, then all is perfect.

If you’d comment more on that, I’d be much obliged.

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By: anticant http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4602 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:51:31 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4602 Well, anticant is lunching with a Tory front-bencher this week, and will do a bit of ear-bending!

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By: dreamingspire http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4600 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:05:44 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4600 anticant is getting near the truth of why the media, etc have been very wary of promoting a better way of running the country: the media and others who would put forward clear views not just on policies but also on implementation methods, like MPs and civil servants, has been bullied into silence. The political climate is different now, but it will take a while for the patients to recover.

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By: anticant http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4599 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 04:38:11 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4599 All that anyone who recalls the euphoria which greeted “New Labour’s” first triumph with its promise of a cleaner, more transparent politics can do is to throw up. NuLab has done immense damage to the political system – far worse than the preceding Tory sleaze – with its witless conviction that spin is all, and the only thing that matters is presentation.

The new ‘counter-terrorism phrasebook’, with its inane examples of the ‘correct’ language to use when talking to [not ‘with’, of course] Muslim communities, is typical and would be laughable if the topic weren’t so deadly serious.

What we want, as this post says, is new policies – not yet more NuLab gobbledygook. This sad crowd long ago ran out of useful ideas, but they can’t stop churning out inane drivel.

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By: BlairSupporter http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4594 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:39:35 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4594 Well said. It’s about time someone argued the positive case rather than the opposite. Guido and people who frequent his abode sound like 19 years olds with a chip on their shoulders.

Their arguments are specious and shallow and lacking REAL veracity. They are opinion. Just like many of our newspapers.

Having said that, since I started blogging (and I have a particular, some might say “peculiar” interest) I have come across some well-researched blogs, though usually from the USA.

And they write better English!

And here we can’t depend on intelligent people to rise above the gutter sniping. For example, I just came across a blog by someone who says he is a Lincoln’s Inn barrister. This is how he finished his “article” after piling abuse on Tony & Cherie Blair (“embarrasssingly a member of my Inn”) :

“Why oh why oh why oh why can’t the useless rag-head pillocks in Al Queda assassinate him? It would be great PR for them: many of us would revise our low opinion of them if they could do us this one small service. Their ineptness is proof that the terrorism ‘threat’ is laughable.”

Is there ANY hope for the British blogger, when this is thought acceptable?

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By: voter http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4593 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:23:33 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4593 Hi – Please check out this site and cast your vote:

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By: Lee Griffin http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4592 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:12:55 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4592 I’ve always felt that it is to do with the nations perpetually growing perverse interest in “celebrity”, and perhaps even politicians trying to feed in to that sense of celebrity, that causes this kind of “scandal”. The trouble is, as you’ve said, the personal is not political and the politicians haven’t grown far enough away from parties and governments to not tarnish the whole system.

This stuff with Hain was a farce, and at worst showed what we already knew, that people do stuff that perhaps is a conflict of interests because there is a lack of transparancy. Conway’s shame is a little more because of the public money involved but it doesn’t change the fact he wouldn’t have been able to do it in the first place if it wasn’t one big old boys club with rules for themselves and others for the rest of us.

I agree totally with the sentiment of this post, I really, really hope I’ll see the day when the underlying issues are addressed rather than the (un)glitzy celebrityesque angle.

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By: Sunny Hundal http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4591 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:38:31 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4591 You hit the nail on the head I’d say… though you give far too much credit to one blogger only because he’ll publish stuff others aren’t willing to do so for reasons of libel, bad taste or just vested interests.

The problem is with political journalism itself too I’d say. Blogs just take that one level further.

The challenge for journalists and others including people on this site is not to find out who is more corrupt but to provide us with accounts of why the conventional wisdom is wrong, what answers it fails to give and how it can be improved.

Well said.

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By: douglas clark http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4590 Sun, 03 Feb 2008 23:48:20 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4590 Err,

This is a better reference:

http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives/2008/01/to_donal_blaney.asp

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By: douglas clark http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4589 Sun, 03 Feb 2008 23:34:51 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4589 Guido Fawkes, whilst critical perhaps of our political masters, and orgasmic when they fall from grace, is apparently perfectly willing to use the laws that they created to attempt to silence other bloggers. Here:

http://www.bloggerheads.com/

This is, I would hazard, a selective view of our evil masters. When they pass laws you can use against others, use them. When they don’t pass laws that suit you, castigate them. Quite the little libertarian? Not really.

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By: Jennie http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4587 Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:38:26 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4587 StandArds.

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By: Nick http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4586 Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:19:37 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/02/03/why-concentrating-on-scandal-misses-the-point/#comment-4586 I dunno. This is an assertion without anything more than anecdotal evidence for the moment, but I would hazard the corrupt politicians (that should be in jail) are also apt to make bad policy decisions and that corruption (even of the comparatively minor sort that we have in British politics) probably plays a fairly big role in creating bad policy.

Take PFI, for example, and even seasoned free market supporters like myself can see how foul these public private partnerships are, the only difference is that the left tend to think that business corrupts government, while libertarians would argue that it is more that government corrupts business. How is it that ex-ministers of health all manage to end up with lucrative jobs and positions with companies that deal closely with government just after leaving their place in government? Might this be the reason why PFI barely ever resembles anything like value for money, that contracts are decided on the basis of access and preference rather than competition?

And check Alan Johnson today: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3295890.ece

I think this minor corruption/bad policy is very much a nexus of issues and Guido’s strategy may play a role at least in slowing down the development of more bad policy even as it concentrates on personality.

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