Hope this helps

Really! Have a butchers of this, i am sure you will understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EDpqc-50Oo

I have never read that book actually, however I have swallowed a lot of his other writings. It is fair to say however that his literary skills far outweigh his oral capabilities (if you have ever seen him with James Rubin on Sky you will know what i mean)

All the best for the new year

Heh, his ethnic background has very little to do with it. And my punjabi is terrible. I just agree with him a lot on issues and I loved his book ‘Desperately Seeking Paradise’.

‘Plenty of sources see Sufic communities going back right to the beginning of Islam- into the eighth century.’

You didn’t actually provide any examples in your piece, the earliest you mention is the 11th and 12th Century. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us all with some actual examples?

‘The fact that the media keeps paying them attention because it can’t find anyone more intelligent than them just illustrates their lack of contacts (or their condescending attitude I guess). Sheesh.’

Sunny, I must admit I also find it very strange, especially considering that the MPAC raison d’etre for the cause of extremism is that the mosques are not ‘teaching politics’. I am surprised no one has ever hauled MPAC up on this, and inquired as to what exactly they mean, for we wouldn’t expect our Churches, Synagogues, Temples and Gurdwara’s to teach politics, so why our Mosques? Surely, you would think the argument would follow, that the insistence of Mosques teaching politics (as i have outlined in my post to Douglas) is itself a contributor to extremism?

In reality, what MPAC rely on is a very rudimentary understanding of Islam as a way of life and the concept of ‘Ummah’ to construct a narrative which they feel is less controversial to non-Muslims than the HT approach of non-political participation.

I think part of the reason for the media giving them a platform is that they themselves actively court the limelight. Secondly, they probably believe that MPAC appear not very ‘orthodox’ hence would appeal more to younger Muslims. Thirdly, they talk about democracy, and that is, well good enough. However what type of democracy are they arguing for, one which perpetuates communalism and group-interest based conflicts.

I personally don’t believe that Muslims should become another interest-based ‘lobby group’ fanatically pursuing a political agenda, ala the Zionist lobby, but rather should take a considered, case-by-case approach to matters. This in essence is the problem within democracies, groups of individuals pursing their own interests, at the exclusion of others. What society needs is a common framework, a set of core values , allowing it to pursue a common good.

p.s. I have noticed that you are a big fan of Ziauddin Sardar, why may that be i wonder? Is it because he is called Sardar, and you are, well, a Sardar? lol

I’m Punjabi as well, so am well-versed in the nuances of Punjabi humour!!!

‘I take it, ’cause I know you, that you are arguing against MPAC? It was not at all clear, to me at least, that that was what you were doing.’

I was arguing against the insistence of groups like MPAC that Muslims must be politically active through subordinating their genuine religious beliefs and practices. For example, what MPAC would say is that ‘the mosques’ should teach politics, by instructing Muslim’s to lobby for certain politicians. Or, they will mock certain spiritual practices, such as prayer and fasting if they are found to be more dominant in an individual’s life than writing replies to articles in the media criticizing Muslims and Islam. They criticize all strands of Muslims, if they do not fulfill their criteria of being politically active, even if, people fee, at times, it is not consistent with some of Islam’s principles. For example, they will attack other Muslims and non-Muslims with vile language, which goes against all prophetic teachings. This they do as a matter of policy, and not due to being overcome by emotions; which from time to time we are all fallible to, even myself (especially when Jagdeep was around on PP!)

‘You do seem to be arguing for a separation of politics and religion, on a favourable interpretation.’

I am arguing for politics not determining and shaping what religion should be, whether it be to keep religion confined, or as some Islamists tend to do, overplay the overtly political dimensions of Islam, whilst underplaying its spiritual side. The latter tends to create a skewed understanding of Islam as a religion, robbing it of its spiritual essence, which forms the foundation of its political dimensions. It this way, you have created a ‘secular religion’, one which has little or no spirituality, one which lacks the deep religious values of mercy, forgiveness, steadfastness and patience.

I was nodding along with the rest of your post, but this seemed unrelated, somewhat.

I do feel concerned however, when theology becomes subservient to a pre-defined political agenda, for it breeds a kind of secular religion.

Explain please?

I take it, ’cause I know you, that you are arguing against MPAC? It was not at all clear, to me at least, that that was what you were doing.

You do seem to be arguing for a separation of politics and religion, on a favourable interpretation.

Policy Exchange is a busted flush. If there ever were political texts in Mosques, then they have done more to make them freely available that the Saudi’s. It was typical attack dog politics, and for once it bit them back.

Read and weep:

http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2007/12/13/can-i-have-a-receipt-for-that/

I, for one, would view anything they ever said in the future with the utmost suspicion. Which, I would think, is probably the right attitude to any think tank.

And you are not wrong about your, so called, leaders. However, that is a different matter from giving Policy Exchange a free pass for shoddy research. If you hang around long enough, you’ll see Sunny in full flow. It is a sight to behold.

Nice to see you are in such good festive mood!

I would also like to point out that the attacks which mpac launch are against all Muslims who are not politically active, not just those of a sufi tradition. I agree that Muslim’s should be politically active, working for the betterment of their communities and for wider society. I do feel concerned however, when theology becomes subservient to a pre-defined political agenda, for it breeds a kind of secular religion. T

There are always denials about the real threat -Jihadism that we all from the free world faceand yet Muslims claiming to be our voice spend more time suppressing the truth. I would rather trust a Jewish person, English person, Indin person who would challenge the status of Muslim women that Islamist stipulate on us than trust a Islamist. I know who I would want outside more front door if a riot or terror threat emerged in my community. I disagree that the IRAQ WAR was the reason that angered and radicalised British Muslims. I can show you books aimed at young children from 1966 that advocate political Islam, against democracy, the author write about the great Islamic stat of Irann and Sudan. Wakeup Britain,.And why shouldn’t the Jewish intellects do what they must regarding Islamists or the ideology -Are they not the people we as muslims are taughts to compare to pigs and monkeys. Is not their first established homeland..a successful democracy in the middle east under constant threat of being wiped out-JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. Osama bin ladin is telling us time and time again that he is at war with us..this is a modern Jihad being instigated..an ideology from the Quran they they have interpretated using 7th century texts and history.. I think it’s a shame that an organisation wants to attack policy exchnage and not combact the situations that are more real in muslim british communities..non of these so called muslim groups do anything to support the emncipation of Muslim women. I know who I would have over at my home for Eid..and it wouldn’t be Dr Bari or Asghar Bukhari.Put a sock in it Bukhari.you do not represent us.

MPAC really are a bunch of idiots. Ok, some of the people who contribute (and I’ve debated with) are ok but Asghar Bukhari and his mates who run it really are nutcases. The fact that the media keeps paying them attention because it can’t find anyone more intelligent than them just illustrates their lack of contacts (or their condescending attitude I guess). Sheesh.

Pour encourager les autres.