Comments on: The problem with liberalism http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/ creating a new liberal-left force Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:20:03 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: A liberal conspiracy? | Liberal Democrat Voice http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-5418 A liberal conspiracy? | Liberal Democrat Voice Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:21:20 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-5418 [...] persuasion, is the tension between statists and liberals on the left, which Duncan Stephen explored here. I’m not afraid of exploring these issues, and neither is it meant to be a [...] [...] persuasion, is the tension between statists and liberals on the left, which Duncan Stephen explored here. I’m not afraid of exploring these issues, and neither is it meant to be a [...]

]]> By: Meh http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2655 Meh Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:11:37 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2655 Re: Sunny #13 It's not just confusion. At heart the average liberal (as opposed to lib-dem) in this country is just another of Thatcher's children and will cheerfully vote for all sorts of things they claim to oppose when it is under the aegis of a Tory government. As Matt Murno said they are "Tories without their kicking boots on" but that doesn't mean they ever get around to standing up to Tories who have their kicking boots on. As such, it's hard to see why they'd be interested in political co-operation with a "liberal-left". Re: Sunny #13

It’s not just confusion. At heart the average liberal (as opposed to lib-dem) in this country is just another of Thatcher’s children and will cheerfully vote for all sorts of things they claim to oppose when it is under the aegis of a Tory government.

As Matt Murno said they are “Tories without their kicking boots on” but that doesn’t mean they ever get around to standing up to Tories who have their kicking boots on.

As such, it’s hard to see why they’d be interested in political co-operation with a “liberal-left”.

]]> By: Sunny Hundal http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2623 Sunny Hundal Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:56:48 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2623 <i>For me, liberalism, outside of core ideas of small state, political liberty, and market capitalism, means being all things to all people. It allows one to occasionally appear radical without having to upset the status quo.</i> I agree with that. It used to be radical... now it seems to be in a state of confusion over what it means rather than where we should go... For me, liberalism, outside of core ideas of small state, political liberty, and market capitalism, means being all things to all people. It allows one to occasionally appear radical without having to upset the status quo.

I agree with that. It used to be radical… now it seems to be in a state of confusion over what it means rather than where we should go…

]]> By: a very public sociologist http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2596 a very public sociologist Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:17:04 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2596 The problem with the free rider problem is the assumption that everyone is pursuing maximum material advantage at any one time for minimum effort, which just isn't the case. Rational choice theorising is highly reductive and offers very little assistance when coming to understand the process and persistence of collective mobilisations. As for liberalism, I have to say the title of this blog gave me pause before I added it to my main blogroll, which is reserved for socialists. The inclusion of Dave Osler on the contributor's list just clinched it. For me, liberalism, outside of core ideas of small state, political liberty, and market capitalism, means being all things to all people. It allows one to occasionally appear radical without having to upset the status quo. Just my two pennies. The problem with the free rider problem is the assumption that everyone is pursuing maximum material advantage at any one time for minimum effort, which just isn’t the case. Rational choice theorising is highly reductive and offers very little assistance when coming to understand the process and persistence of collective mobilisations.

As for liberalism, I have to say the title of this blog gave me pause before I added it to my main blogroll, which is reserved for socialists. The inclusion of Dave Osler on the contributor’s list just clinched it. For me, liberalism, outside of core ideas of small state, political liberty, and market capitalism, means being all things to all people. It allows one to occasionally appear radical without having to upset the status quo.

Just my two pennies.

]]> By: Matt Munro http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2594 Matt Munro Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:05:16 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2594 The best definition I've heard of a liberal, and the only one under which would class myself as such is "A tory without his kicking boots on". There's no automatic connection between liberal and left, the left have just hijacked liberalism to make themselves sound more acceptable. Very few "liberal lefties" are anything other than wannabe stalinist authoritarians The best definition I’ve heard of a liberal, and the only one under which would class myself as such is “A tory without his kicking boots on”. There’s no automatic connection between liberal and left, the left have just hijacked liberalism to make themselves sound more acceptable. Very few “liberal lefties” are anything other than wannabe stalinist authoritarians

]]> By: chrisc http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2592 chrisc Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:56:24 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2592 No, it was Humpty Dumpty. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.' No, it was Humpty Dumpty.

‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’

‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all.’

]]> By: douglas clark http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2572 douglas clark Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:57:28 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2572 anticant, Just guessing here, but don't you mean The Red Queen? What the hell, you use words any way you want! anticant,

Just guessing here, but don’t you mean The Red Queen? What the hell, you use words any way you want!

]]> By: anticant http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2569 anticant Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:56:21 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2569 This political naming business causes endless confusion.We're all Humpty Dumptyists to some extent - we use words to mean what we choose them to mean. For me, liberalism means that governments are - or should be - the servants of the people, and not the other way round. This political naming business causes endless confusion.We’re all Humpty Dumptyists to some extent – we use words to mean what we choose them to mean.

For me, liberalism means that governments are – or should be – the servants of the people, and not the other way round.

]]> By: Lee Griffin http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2567 Lee Griffin Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:37:56 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2567 Quite, how hard is it to just call yourself what you see yourself as and correct people if they get the wrong end of the stick? ;) Quite, how hard is it to just call yourself what you see yourself as and correct people if they get the wrong end of the stick? ;)

]]> By: Jennie http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2560 Jennie Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:50:41 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2560 And here we are all fighting over which label to apply to ourselves, all because we live in the age of the soundbite. FWIW I call myself Millian Liberal. And then nobody gets me confused with the pro-censorship idiots that call themselves Liberals on my local council. And here we are all fighting over which label to apply to ourselves, all because we live in the age of the soundbite.

FWIW I call myself Millian Liberal. And then nobody gets me confused with the pro-censorship idiots that call themselves Liberals on my local council.

]]> By: ad http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2555 ad Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:29:00 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2555 <i>As for the (free market) libertarians? </i> How about "classical liberals". "Left classical liberal" would probably be too much of a mouthful to catch on. As for the (free market) libertarians?

How about “classical liberals”.

“Left classical liberal” would probably be too much of a mouthful to catch on.

]]> By: thomas http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2547 thomas Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:33:18 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2547 Liberalism: philosophy, not a philosophy. Liberalism: philosophy, not a philosophy.

]]> By: doctorvee » The problem with liberalism http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2538 doctorvee » The problem with liberalism Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:41:40 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2538 [...] This post has been published over at Liberal Conspiracy here. To keep the discussion in one place, I will close the comments on this post. If you have any [...] [...] This post has been published over at Liberal Conspiracy here. To keep the discussion in one place, I will close the comments on this post. If you have any [...]

]]> By: Chris Keating http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2535 Chris Keating Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:31:42 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2535 I started off worrying that Liberal Conspiracy wasn't liberal enough, but it seems to have got a lot better :) I started off worrying that Liberal Conspiracy wasn’t liberal enough, but it seems to have got a lot better :)

]]> By: DonaldS http://liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2533 DonaldS Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:13:43 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/12/13/the-problem-with-liberalism/#comment-2533 Liberalism is a contested term - with a history further back beyond Mill, and since Rawls. I don't see what the problem is. The 'no true liberal...' brigade just need to get over themselves. Socialism is a (slightly) less contested term. I doubt you'd find many contributors here happy to call themselves that. Liberalism is a contested term – with a history further back beyond Mill, and since Rawls. I don’t see what the problem is.

The ‘no true liberal…’ brigade just need to get over themselves.

Socialism is a (slightly) less contested term. I doubt you’d find many contributors here happy to call themselves that.

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